Slappin’ Glass sits down this week with the former Head Coach of Real Madrid, Pablo Laso. Coach Laso has long been considered one of top coaches in the game and we had a blast diving into: managing talent and deep rosters, offensive spacing, and talk “Floppy Action” and attacking shot blocking bigs during the always fun “Start, Sub, or Sit?!”
Inside the Episode
It was another fantastic week on the podcast as we were joined by former Real Madrid Head Coach, Pablo Laso! Coach Laso is widely considered one of the best coaches in the game and we had a blast diving into a variety of subjects including:
- Managing a Deep and Talented Roster: Coach Laso has had the good fortune of coaching some of the best and deepest rosters in the game, which doesn’t come without its struggles. In the first part of our conversation we explore how Coach Laso managed playing time, egos, rotations, and tactical decisions during his tenure.
- Attacking Shot-Blocking Bigs in the PnR: Coach Laso coached one of the best shot-blocking bigs in the European game, Edy Tavares, and during “Start, Sub, or Sit?!” we picked his brain on some of the PnR actions that would give a great shot-blocker trouble.
- Running Great “Floppy” Action: During “Start, Sub, or Sit?!” we also dove into Coach Laso’s thoughts on running great “Floppy” Action. He is well known for using the baseline screening set as a base entry to begin his offense, so we picked his brain on how he taught and thought about using the action.
Transcript
Pablo Lasso 00:00
There is a funny story back on the days that Aito, Spanish coach, well known, on the first meeting with the team, gave a paper to all his players and told them, how many minutes do you think that you should play on this team? Do you think if you do that to any team, it’s going to come to 200 minutes? No. We all know it’s not going to be like that. You as a coach has to understand. It’s not easy. And I think it’s very important that players understand what is important for the team.
Dan 01:59
And now, please enjoy our conversation with coach Pablo Lasso.
Pat 02:09
Coach, thank you for taking the time to join us today. We’re really excited to talk basketball with you.
Pablo Lasso 02:14
Thank you and a pleasure for me being with you guys.
Pat 02:17
Coach, what we’d like to start with you today is managing a deep roster. In the past, you’ve always been fortunate enough to have a tremendous amount of talent and be able to play eight, nine, 10 deep. So we’d like to just start with how you thought about managing a deep roster, all the considerations that went into keeping guys happy, and then how it would affect how you would play on the court.
Pablo Lasso 02:39
Back on the days when I used to play, probably we used to play let’s say between 30, 40, maybe 50 games a year. Right now in Europe, it’s difficult that a top team doesn’t play around 80 games, playoff and everything. So I think that right now it’s important to have a longer roster to make sure you can somehow get away from injuries or bad moments during the year. That’s more general.
But also on the games, I think the pace of the game has increased. People goes much more up and down. Physically, he has become a big part of the game. I’m going to tell you a funny story about when I used to play, I was when I was coaching South Sebastian like 12 years ago, something like that. I was watching a game of myself playing, and one of my kids said, why no one is running? So now that pace has changed and it’s important to make the players understand that they have to produce probably in less amount of minutes. You cannot be in the floor just standing there and wait for things to happen. You just have to somehow produce. And that will oblige you to use more players on every game. It’s very rare, very difficult that you watch a team that plays one guy more than 30, 35 minutes. Probably almost impossible that two guys play 30 or 35 minutes. I don’t know if there is a team that will play three guys between 30 and 35 minutes. OK, that maybe can happen on a final where it’s more than understandable. But during the year, I think it’s very important that you manage those minutes. And it’s very important that at the same time, you understand from the beginning that you’re going to need everyone. And they as players, they have to understand that they’re going to be needed at any moment and at every time of the year.
Pat 04:25
Coach, I’d like to go back when you said, when you’re managing their minutes and getting them to understand that they have to produce in less minutes, what was your role or your responsibility in helping the players to first understand that, but then put them in an environment or in a system that helps them to produce when they’re getting less minutes.
Pablo Lasso 04:45
Well, the question is difficult, but at the same time, he sees, let’s say, I don’t care too much about a guy being the highest scorer on the league, because probably the best scorer on the league, you should take it on the time he plays. Let’s say if a guy plays 35 minutes, he might be top scorer, but then there’s a guy who plays 20 minutes and he scores as much as the other guy, but he plays less minutes. So for me, a lot of times it’s important that you produce, we’re talking about points, but in all the matters of the games are important. If you’re a glimpse, put it on a defender. You have a great defender on one situation, let’s say a ball defender or a pick and roll defender who’s defending the ball, and he’s very good on that. He’s not going to be able to do it the whole game. So it’s very important that you manage that and make players understand that for the team, and for me, for sure, as a coach, it’s very important that they’re able to play their best on the minutes that they’re in the floor, not just being on the floor and waiting to get their defenses, their rebounds, their steals. It’s going to be a matter of deciding that I need them. I’m going to need all of them to be ready at any moment of the game.
Dan 05:53
Coach, when it comes to having a deep roster, for the most part is probably a good thing. Most coaches would say, hey, I’ll take a lot of talent any day, but it doesn’t come without its difficulties when it comes to managing egos, playing time, shots, scoring, all those things that you just mentioned. And for you, I mean, as your career as a player and obviously as a coach, how do you think about managing those kinds of things during a season?
Pablo Lasso 06:17
Listen, first of all, I love players because I was one of them. So for me, the funny thing is when I didn’t play much, my first argue was I should be playing more. When I was playing a lot, I was like, they cannot play me this much. I cannot play this much more. So at the end, it’s very difficult to find. There is a funny story back on the days that Aito, Spanish coach, well-known, on the first meeting with the team, gave a paper to all his players and tell them, how many minutes do you think that you should play on this team? Do you think if you do that to any team, it’s going to come to 200 minutes? No, we all know it’s not going to be like that. There is going to be guys that are expecting to play more. You, as a coach, have to understand it’s not easy. And it’s a matter of a lot of time of egos. When you watch any time, any film, any series about sports, the first thing that players argue is why they don’t play me more, why I don’t get more shots, why, why, why. So instead of asking why, that’s part of their ego. They don’t think, if they do this, it might help the team. So I think it’s very important that players understand what is important for the team.
It’s funny because this happens like two months ago. I have a great relationship with Rudy Fernandez. For me, Rudy is not the best, one of the best players that came out of Spain’s ever. And let’s say on the last place of the game, I used to say, okay, Rudy takes it out. And okay, we’re going to do this, blah, blah, blah, blah. We’re going to do this. But Rudy takes it out. And one day Rudy came up to me like, why I always take it out. He probably thought, okay, if I’m a great player, who he is, why he doesn’t, let’s say, draw a play for me. My answer was very simple. Rudy, you’re the best in the floor to take the ball out of bounds. If we don’t take the ball out of bounds, we’re not going to do any play. So that’s something that is a good example of how a coach has to manage the team.
And that doesn’t mean that let’s say taking the ball out of bounds. It’s okay, not necessary. It’s probably the most important thing. If you don’t get the ball out of bounds, you’re not going to play no play. So this is something that takes a lot of time. But at the same time, I think it’s easy to understand.
Dan 08:35
Coach, the other thing I’d love to ask you about is with talented players, and as you just mentioned, you were a great player yourself, well, you didn’t mention it, you were a great player, but the balance of freedom versus control that you give great players, and we’re talking about deep rosters and managing a roster. Some players have more freedom likely than others because of their abilities and how that plays into how you coach these talented people.
Pablo Lasso 09:00
Well good question also. Difficult and simple at the same time. Look, because you just think you have a lot of talent. You just throw the game, throw the team, throw the players into the floor without no control. That’s not going to work.
Let’s put an example on another sport. To win soccer games, football games, let’s make a team with Mbappe, Benzema, Bale. You don’t need a goalie. You’re going to win because you have the best scorers, but all of us, we understand that you need a great defensive player and you’re going to need a great goalie if you want to win. I put an example on another sport, but I think it’s the way it is in basketball. For sure, having talent is the best thing, but they have to be under control. You just cannot let that talent go out there and do whatever they want because then it will turn us on a situation where everybody will think that they have their own talent. At the end, it will be chaos. It will be like a situation where everybody thinks, okay, I can do this. Why don’t I do this more often? Then the other guy said, well, if I’m, let’s say, the best shooter, why don’t I shoot the ball all the time? Well, if I’m the best defender, why I shouldn’t be playing all the time because I’m the best defender? If I’m the best rebounder, why shouldn’t I be playing all the time because I’m the best rebounder? So at the end, you need control to get all those abilities together to create a better team. you
Pat 10:21
Coach, sticking on this control conversation and looking at it from a tactical standpoint, would you be more inclined to with your team? Let’s play more out of concepts and giving them concepts that they play out versus let’s say maybe more system set. So when it’s, Hey, when it’s this group of five, we know we’re going to play this way, but then I sub and now we’re going to start to play this way because of their talents for me is more.
Pablo Lasso 10:43
concepts. And I’m going to explain why. I’m not a set guy. Listen, if we’re getting internet, we’re going to get all the set plays that everybody plays. And for me, concepts are a bold place, a bold set place. That means that Pablo Lazo doesn’t have set plays. That’s stupid. Pablo Lazo has set plays. You need it for the game. But for me, it’s very important that people on your team, your players understand the concept that you want, the concept that you’re using defensively, and offense. Because that’s the way you build the team, not only by creating set plays. I’m going to put you an example that I hate. Why all of a sudden we all see the same set play play on almost every team you watch? That cannot work. Maybe that set play is great for, I don’t know, for Unicaca. And it’s not good for Bamber. Unicaca and Bamber, totally different concepts, totally different basketball, totally different league. So I think it’s very important that as a coach, your set plays are for sure there, but it cannot be just, okay, I have this great set play. It’s funny because when I watch NBA games, a lot of times I don’t see plays. For me, it’s a play. Maybe I remember one. But probably what I’m watching is the concept, the concept of how fill in the corners, how create movements away from the ball. How do we want to attack on that situation on the pick and roll? For me, those concepts are above the play, above the set play, like I told you at the beginning. That doesn’t mean Pablo Lasso doesn’t play set plays. No. And I’m going to put you another example. Don’t you guys think that all the scouters are going to scout by set plays?
Dan 12:24
Yeah, for sure.
Pablo Lasso 12:26
So, very simple. If you’ve got a set play and the ball got to go from five to one and if you cut those passing lanes, then the set play is not going to work. Now you have to work on your concept in front of your set plays. For me, that’s my idea.
Dan 12:40
How do you think about, then, what types of philosophy you’re going to run with talking about deep rostering and talented people? Like, how you’re going to play, whether you’re picking a role base through the post or when things break down. How do you think about what you’re going to do in those instances?
Pablo Lasso 12:55
It’s funny because it’s probably one of your first questions inside of you when you get a team. When you get a team, you probably think, okay, if I’m playing the last minute of a final, what players would I have in and what, let’s say, concept defensively and offensively is going to be important for you. For example, now on the NBA, it comes a moment where you watch games and you just see everybody switching on. Okay. Very good. Can all the teams switch because probably the team that less switches makes on a game are the Warriors and they’re the World Champions right now. That talks good about, I don’t know, Steve Kerr’s philosophy or talks good about, okay, I don’t want Steve and Kirby to be switching all the time defensively, but it’s normal. So at the end, it’s very important that above your principles, you have to understand what kind of players do you have and how to use them.
Dan 13:47
Going to the defensive side of the ball for a split second here is whatever like your defensive system, how would you think about when you were going into a game and let’s say Pat and I were talking before, you normally switch one through four, but then in a certain game a one through four switch might be problematic because you don’t want to whatever it is. You have these instances where potentially a game plan butts up against your philosophy on defense and how you would manage that or how you would handle those kinds of things?
Pablo Lasso 14:14
For sure you have to be open because at the end you have to study the other team. And let’s talk about a clear example. If Tavares is going to defend Dublevitch, we’re going to have a problem. Dublevitch is probably his biggest threat. It’s shooting outside. So what’s Valente is going to try to do? He’s going to try to get Tavares out of the zone. But if you defend Dublevitch by a smaller guy, then Dublevitch is smart. He’s going to go inside where he has advantage. At the end, all those situations, they have to be above your principles, for sure. But somehow, you have to adjust. But at the same time, you cannot be switching all your defense just because one game. Because then, let’s say, you are applied to switch all the time your situation is game by game. And I believe that it’s important that you create your defensive habits and keep them during the year. Despite that, for sure, you’re going to have to make adjustments.
Pat 15:05
And coach, knowing this, that, you know, maybe if we look at your in pre-season, you know, you got to build your concepts, your foundation, but as you project ahead, you know, you’re going to be facing Dubovich how maybe you build them that adaptability within your team. So they’re prepared when it’s necessary, when we have to have it, but it’s not something where you’re just throwing it at them new, and it looks like every week we’re trying to do something different.
Pablo Lasso 15:28
No, what we do usually, what I think, okay, defensively, you have, let’s say, plan A, and you wish that plan A, you don’t need to switch it during the whole year. But believe me, all coaches have plan A, plan B, plan C, plan D, plan E, and you have to practice it. I mean, it was funny because one year, I remember, I don’t know what year it was, they said like, yeah, but Pablo also made a 1-3-1 zone that changed the game. Well, okay, we were practicing that zone for months. I didn’t use it, but we had them. And one day we put it in, and we saw that it was important, and we saw that it was going to be effective. And with certain players, it could work out with some others. Don’t, for example, right now, if us three, we don’t have a clue about basketball, what would we do? We go zone, lift the virus in the middle, and okay.
Dan 16:25
Yep.
Pablo Lasso 16:25
No? Because we have the biggest guy close to the basket and okay let’s play 2-1-2 zone so Tabari’s in the middle blah blah blah blah and we know it’s not like that because the other team is going to react and he’s going to attack your weakest points that’s why probably on your let’s say defensive concepts you have to think about all those situations. Okay if I have a big guy if I have a guy who is not very good to guard in the ball on a pick and roll situation if we have bad defenders of shooters then you have to create let’s say your bases defensively or offensively understanding what you have on your team that it’s going to be good and it’s going to be helpful for the team not only just because my idea is this so let’s play this no probably you’re going to have to be able to adjust.
Dan 17:12
All these things that we’re talking about, if someone were to come to your practice, what does a typical practice look like when you’re trying to implement these things? There’s a lot of five on five. Do you prefer to break things down? I mean, how do you prefer to teach these things?
Pablo Lasso 17:25
Usually, let’s say I leave the 5 on 5 for the end of practice, I think we build practice on different drills at the beginning, let’s say shooting or creating space defensively and offensively. We work a lot on advantages on how to breed advantages offensively and defensively, how to cover those mismatches, have the ideas, probably more on 3 on 3 and 4 on 4 or 3 on 0, 4 on 0, 5 on 0 drills. Only probably at the end of practice is when you go to more let’s say 5 on 5 situations where probably more reels but I don’t believe much on just jumping to practice on a 5 on 5 situation and just play. I think it’s very important to work on fundamentals defensively and offensively and a lot of drills that can be used differently depending on the day before the game and probably not losing too much time on scouting the other opponent. For me, scouting cannot go longer than the day before or the day of the game because then I think it’s more important to watch your team and practice your team and practice what the other team can do.
Dan 18:39
Coach, late game situations or special situations, how do you prefer to practice those to get your team ready?
Pablo Lasso 18:45
That is a good question. Look, we all went to a basketball game where you go with a friend and when somebody misses a free throw and your friend doesn’t know anything about basketball, he goes like, I will have him shooting free throws for five hours. That’s typical. And my question is yeah, but that’s not real. In the last free throw, on the last second to win a game, you can be practicing that forever, but that’s going to happen once or twice or three times. So for sure, you’re going to have to practice that, but the real game situation, it’s going to be a real game situation and can be different. If you’re playing at home, if you play in a way, if you’re looking for a three-pointer, if you’re looking for a two-pointer, you just want to get foul. So there’s a lot of situations that can happen on the game, but I think it’s important that somehow you practice them during the week, but I don’t like to tell the players specifically, we’re doing this and I’m going to explain you why. Because if I tell them that we’re doing this, okay, probably defense is not going to be the same and offense is not going to be the same because at the end, they don’t have the pressure of the game, the real situation. I think it’s good that you haven’t on your head. It’s good that you practice during days, but at the end, you have to understand that those situations have to be ready on your mind to use them when it’s necessary.
You don’t know you’re going to need it. Maybe you spend the whole year without playing, let’s say a situation where you have the ball and you’re winning by three and you have to take it out of bounds where probably you just need to put the ball in, control it, get foul, make a free throw and game will be over. So it’s going to be so many situations that you can probably not be able to practice all of them, but somehow there are things that you can practice, let’s say during the week, that can be useful on those moments.
Pat 20:40
Coach, the 5 on 5, will you keep score? Will you or tell your guys we played 11 or is it we’re just going to play five on five and work on whatever you’re trying to work on that day?
Pablo Lasso 20:50
For practice when you think about what you want to improve it’s important that you decide on what let’s say part do you prefer to work more time let’s say for example okay let’s work on getting the ball inside that means we’re gonna change the game and let’s say we’re gonna change practice no we want to create a situation where the ball is gonna go okay we’re gonna play this but the ball is gonna finish inside and then for me as a coach it’s important how we react when the ball goes inside it’s not okay we will give the ball inside to I don’t know whoever player and he’s gonna score no how are we gonna move what are we going to create same thing if we play in bigger role situation safety we’re playing let’s say baseline exit for a guy okay is that guy gonna shoot no because probably difference is gonna react so we have to learn how to play out of this and this is something that we work more on five on five to create real situations
Pat 21:45
Good. My last question on this topic with managing deep rosters, and I could be wrong, but I think a big component is obviously when you have success as a team or when you’re winning, it’s easier for guys to buy in easier for guys to sacrifice a little bit more, but how is in moments of tough times or losing streaks or the team isn’t playing good basketball? How does how you think about managing your deep roster change?
Pablo Lasso 22:09
Okay, good, difficult and simple at the same time, because when you’re playing sports, you always want to win, no matter what. Right now we’re finished and we play ping pong, I want to beat you and you want to beat me. So that’s normal, and you have to understand that from the beginning. But for me, winning is not the only thing. You have to improve, you have to be better. You have to play better by asking. Not just because you’re winning, you’re doing things perfect or correct. So it’s important that everybody understand that your goal is not just winning.
It’s creating good habits, it’s playing good basketball, and you need all of the guys to be involved on that situation. It’s not about, okay, I’m winning because this guy’s scoring 25 points, so tomorrow we’ll win because he will score 25. Again, how about if he gets the flu and he doesn’t play? So for me, it’s more of a, how do we want to play? How are we going to play? And not the players that they’re going to play. Players for sure are very important. I mean, it would be stupid, this, you will tell me, yeah, Paulo, but if you play the final of the year again, Rudy Fernando is hurt, Tabares is hurt, and I don’t know, Yavuzel is hurt, then your chances go down, for sure. But that cannot make me think, okay, I got nothing to do because the team has to be above those things. And for me, that’s why it’s important that we know how to play, we play good basketball, we’re solving. This is difficult. Why? I’m going to put you on example. I remember once we lost a game because somebody scored on the last second, and everybody on my locker room was going crazy. We should have defend this this way. We should have defend this that way. Okay, this guy had the shot because we didn’t play good. We should have put another defender, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like this, and I said, well, we’re playing shitty basketball. So for me, that point was bigger than that last shot. Okay, we lost the game. But if we don’t play better basketball, we’re not going to beat that team next time.
We need to play better basketball. And for me, that is something that at the end, it will make you, let’s say, proud of the job you’re doing with your team. Not only just winning, or let’s say, or getting the right play at that moment, or the right situation at that moment, who for sure you’re going to be judged for that. But at the end, as coach, somehow you have to have something that, on what you rely on. It’s going to be things that they’re more important than just, let’s say, stopping that play, or playing that game, or heading that shot.
Dan 25:14
And now back to our conversation. Coach, this has been awesome so far. We want to transition now to a little game we play on the show here called Start, Sub, or Sit. And so we’re going to give you three options on a topic, ask you to start one, sub one, sit one. So if you’re ready, coach, we’ll dive into this first one. Okay, go ahead. Coach, this first one has to do with floppy action and your coach, it’s run it really, really well over the years for different players. And so these are three different qualities or technical techniques of teaching floppy action. And your start here would be which one of these three you think would be the most important to teach. So start, sub, or sit with floppy action, teaching the shooters how to use the screen, how to set up the screen so they can actually get open on that catch. The second option is the screening angles and the depth of the bigs screening for those guards, where they are and how they screen. And the third option is re-spacing after that action. So whatever you do, shooter catches it and then how you re-space and flow into your next actions.
Pablo Lasso 26:21
Okay, the most important for me is the last one you said, three spacing. Second one, screening. Third one, the first one you said.
Dan 26:29
Using the screen the shooter setting them up. Yeah.
Pablo Lasso 26:31
That’s too simple. If you get a good screen, he’s gonna get open and he’s gonna shoot the ball. So for me, let’s say the most important is how to re-space everything.
Dan 26:39
Coach, I think Pat and I both have a lot of questions for you on this one, but I guess before we dive into some of the details of the floppy action, love to know just philosophically why you liked running it so much as a base action.
Pablo Lasso 26:51
Well, I run it, why? And I’m going to explain to you why, because a lot of times I watch games and I only see pick and roll. And pick and roll is just part of the offense. And on the last years, and when you watch, I don’t know, let’s say my kid, he’s 16 years old, he tells me, when I run pick and roll, it’s very easy because I see everything, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think there is a lot of more actions where you can get people involved and you’re going to need a good passer, you’re going to need a good screener, a good breeder out of that screen. And that’s why I think that basketball is just much more than just pick and roll.
And we’re coming to a situation where it’s just pick and roll. And pick and roll probably stops all the offense. And that’s what we’re watching, let’s say in NBA. That’s why everybody switches. That way, we cut the pick and roll. So pick and roll is not being used that much on NBA because everybody’s switching. So at the end it’s one-on-one. And I don’t like situations where you just go one-on-one and pick and roll right now, it’s becoming a part of one-on-one situations. Again, I love to watch teams that play different actions, not only pick and roll game, because a lot of times we see players that they’re not that good playing pick and rolls and they’re playing pick and rolls just because the game or the team, let’s say it’s fundamental offense is pick and rolls. Why? If you are a good pick and roll player, why not? Play pick and roll. I have Sergio Rodriguez. If I don’t put Sergio Rodriguez to play pick and roll, I would be a stupid coach. Sergio is great at playing pick and roll, but I cannot play pick and roll all the time because Sergio Rodriguez is playing alongside Carlo. And Carlo is a great shooter coming off the screens and they have to play together. So at the end, you have to mix everything to make sure your offense is balanced and it’s not, let’s say, one-on-one situations or pick and roll situations.
Pat 28:41
Coach, when finding that balance and when we were talking earlier about practice, you also mentioned important to help your guys read the advantage. You want to teach your players to read the advantage. So when you run floppy and it doesn’t leave necessary to a direct shot, how are you helping your guys to read what transpired if there was a curl or we got the bone of 45, but then also to flow and re-space and play out the rest of the possession.
Pablo Lasso 29:05
Yeah, usually we work on that. That’s why we talk about re-space. Okay, let’s say we play a pin down on one side and the guy is well defended and we cannot shoot the ball. So what we do, we give the ball to the defense. No, we’ve got to do something else. And we, let’s say, re-space it on whatever we want. Maybe we’ll go handoff and then pick and roll is coming. Maybe we go, we pass the ball back and then we play a back screen. Different situations that you have to play after any situation. That’s why I’m always re-space a little bit because then, okay, we go to our, one of our first questions.
Control or not control. Okay, we play a pick. We get the guy open. He receives it. He cannot shoot it. He just holds it and play. No, we need to try to get everybody involved on the offense. That way you make the defense work on something else than just defending one guy.
Pat 29:54
And if we look at it in the game, is it certain maybe game plan specific or is it just like through the practice what your players have shown you? Will you dictate any sort of these concepts? Like you said, like, hey, if it’s not there, get to a handoff back to the point guard for a step up or let’s play it inside. I guess what are you doing to influence the next play after that play?
Pablo Lasso 30:14
Well, usually, and this is probably part of our job, okay, we have to somehow read what’s going on. And if there is a team that is not defending well, let’s say the baseline exits, okay, somehow you have to attack that and you have to be ready. Let’s say you have advantage on the post. Let’s say the other team is switching on every pick and roll. Let’s get advantage of that switch. Let’s say we have a bad defender of the pick and roll and they’re not switching. Let’s attack this guy. Okay, these are things that probably you’re going to, let’s say, practice. You’re going to have to work on practice, probably watching what the other team is going to propose. That way, you’re going to be ready to react or that kind of defense.
I remember, I don’t know, it was five or six years ago when we played, I think it was Funervacio on the playoffs. That, Velko Bradovic, on every exit and every Carvel exit, he used to double team Carvel and we were not ready. That for me was shocking because I said, okay, they cut out one of our, let’s say, important threats, Carvel coming out of screens. And they were double him and he didn’t even get the ball. And for me, the problem was not Carvel being a good defender. The problem was, how do we react out of this? Okay, because if two defenders go with Carvel, we have to be able to create something because somebody else is going to be open. Okay, that worked for them on the, let’s say it was a playoff on the first game. Velko is smart. He didn’t do it on the second game, but it was good for him and he was valued up. But I think it was something that we were missing at that moment on how to create that. In fact, we talked at halftime and we have very good offenses reading that after halftime. But of course, it was a great, let’s say, defensive surprise that Velko made to us. And of course, we have to be ready to adjust as quick as possible.
Pat 31:59
What was the adjustment that you talked with your team to solve them Double Curl?
Pablo Lasso 32:03
Well, the first thing that we did is, okay, I remember that they were trailing Caro on every exit with the same player and the big guy was denying the ball. So almost they were, you know, cutting that, let’s say, shot. But then we were playing four against three. So we needed to create space and make sure that we understand that Caro is defended by two guys. And I remember that I said, okay, Caro, keep going out, keep going out and create the space for the other guy and make sure you play this play, but then attack the four on three situation on the other side. And that was for us at the beginning was kind of shocked because, okay, everybody was expecting that Caro was going to get free, but they overplayed that. They played very good defense. So it was for us very clear that we had to, out of that play, create something different. And probably it took us a while, but I think it was a good reaction from the team to read that and be able to do something different.
Dan 32:57
Coach, my last follow up on this before we move to the next start subset, a lot of times watching your team play, there’s a certain set where you guys would run horns into floppy action where it didn’t appear that you ever were really looking to use the pick and roll as a normal pick and roll to try to create an advantage, but just kind of to get into floppy and I’m just wondering why deciding to kind of use some false action before getting into it rather than just say getting right into floppy.
Pablo Lasso 33:23
Okay, listen, first time I played the horns was back on 95, 96, playing for Obrado with Tim Madrid. I never saw the horns before. And we played them. I remember you used to have, probably you remember, ex-national team coach Orenga and Joel Lucas playing together. So it was very good knowing that both of them could screen and roll, or screen, short roll, or even screen and pop. So I remember Obrado played that with us, and I think it was great. Okay, then it came a moment where everybody used to play the horns. And I think the horns for us has become, let’s say, kind of an entry offense, where we can develop that into a different situation. For example, Redstone played the horns offense to get the ball inside to Jagodny, very quick. And it was simple, and it was one screen, Jagodny went down. So after the second screen, Jagodny was sealing you inside. Very good.
As you saw a lot of times playing the horns and then play floppy actions for shooters. Okay. So at the end, for me, the horns has become, let’s say, primordial, not, let’s say, something that you used to finish. It comes all to a pick and roll. A little bit like the Spanish pickle ball. Now everybody plays the Spanish pickle ball, where I love they call it Spanish pick and roll. But it’s not Spanish. I saw it before Spain played it. Spain played it great with the national team, but I saw it played somebody else before. But the Spanish pick and roll is good, but you cannot be playing Spanish pickle ball at the time because at the end, maybe you have a Spanish pickle ball and it comes out to play good, depending on the other team’s difference. I remember we played the Spanish pickle ball great one time against Salghiris when we played in countless because they were double teaming, I think, Chacho and Sergio. So Carlos was setting the back screen on the big guy and he was getting open every time because they have to take care of the role. So Carlos was open. Okay, right now we don’t see that lot because defense is ready for that. So I think it’s very important that a lot of times you create one offense, but at the end, you have to think what’s going to come later on that offense. Not only, okay, I play the horns and that’s it. No, somehow you have to create the way you want to attack. And for me, let’s say horns has become probably, let’s say, a start of the offense to create something different.
Dan 35:46
Coach, do you remember where you saw the Spanish pick and roll first? Yes. Secret.
Pablo Lasso 35:53
I remember Bamber playing it a lot with Strelnix, Sisis, and Cassel together. Daniel found it on the screen and all three could play pickleball to either side. I think it was Andrea Coache.
Pat 36:07
Okay. All right. Yeah. Our last start sub sit for you. We’ve been alluding to it, or we’ve talked about it briefly, but has to do with Tavares and his pick and roll coverage, his unique ability to protect the rim and the pick and roll. But we’d like to ask you, give you three scenarios that really stressed his coverage or the adjustments that were hard for you guys to defend. So start, supper, sit, the Spanish pick and roll, putting the stack screener in there to screen Tavares a pick and pop, as we talked about, or if they would just elevate the screens. So now the point guard or the ball handler could maybe dribble, pull up threes.
Pablo Lasso 36:46
Okay, let’s go for the last one first. If you bring the distance has to be the same for defense. That means that you know we’re not going to leave the virus underneath and wait. He has to come up and defend that screen above the three point. That doesn’t mean his edge or double, but he has to defend the guy who stops there. And if he stops the three point shot and they drive on him, okay, they drive on them. He has to contest that or the ball defender is going to be late. But somehow we have situations depend on how the screen is going to roll or stay open.
Let’s say we get on the second point. Pick and pop. Good. If we get into a pick and pop situation, that could be a switch because he’s going against the virus, the small guy. So the virus will hold and we have to defend it. And if the guy stays out there waiting for the pop, maybe it’s automatically the switch. That way you have to adjust on who’s defending that switch just in case that guy sees the pop. And let’s say he has a lot of advantage and goes inside. So maybe that pick and roll player has to be defended by a bigger guy and that will help the virus on his defense. And third one, the Spanish pick and roll. It doesn’t create that much difference for us. And I’m going to explain you why, because I think Spanish pick and roll is very effective against edge or double. And usually the virus doesn’t edge or double too much. Would it be pretty stupid if you let’s say bring the virus out of eight meters to edge or double and losing where he’s really effective close to the room.
Pat 38:19
Coach, I know this question, we’re looking at Tavares, but I’m just curious, what was the responsibility or what were you talking with the on ball defender in terms of denying, okay, Tavares is going to drop, but your job is this and this and this in the pick and roll.
Pablo Lasso 38:33
Okay, usually I’m not a big fan of sending guys to one side. Okay, somebody would tell me, you’re pretty stupid, send Jacobite is right. Well, I said I’m not a big fan, but for sure there is player who goes better to one side than the other. I don’t want to talk about Jacobite. Let’s talk about a player that I love the place for me that played for me before. I mean, if you don’t cut Fabien Casseres left, you’re pretty stupid. How you have to cut or get his left, but I’m not a big fan of that. Sincerely. Why? Because I think that you’re opening a gate for the guy to escape, let’s say, back to my days. I was right handed. I used to laugh when they cut my right hand because in fact, I was better going to my left. I was a right handed because right handed, okay, my penetration was aggressive, but to my left, I have better control of everything. I could pass, I could finish. So I feel better going left. That’s why I’m not a big fan of sending guys to one side.
Why? Also because the other teams are not stupid and they see that and they attack it. That’s why a lot of times people that we see Spanish, we call Fondo side. When we see pick and roll on the side, we call it side to send the people inside. I’m not a big fan of it. And we try it with Tavares and even with Tavares who could be probably the most important thing. Okay, you got Tavares playing side pick and roll. Defense on the side pick and roll. Okay. Send them inside into them. Okay. But a lot of times teams know that. So they get something out of that because they know that’s going to happen and they’re able to attack that the way they want. So I think that you cannot drive crazy. Let’s say you’re outside guys on saying, okay, send them right. Send them depend, go under, go over. I think it’s better to have a rule. Let’s say you’re going over the top. Don’t let him go to the other side of the screen and go over the top or go under. I see a lot of teams going under, going under on the first one, go over on the second, a lot of them. So I think that what I don’t like is be changing that day by day, just because you’re playing different players or different team, because at the end you’re going to drive your team crazy. That doesn’t mean that when you play, let’s say a playoff series, that it could be easier because you’re playing the same team, same players, you know, on closest days, could be easier to do that. But usually during the year, it’s very difficult to get the players, okay, today we’ll go under and tomorrow we’re going to work on go behind and tomorrow we’re going to send them to the right. No, I don’t like that. I think you have to create your bases defensively and try to don’t drive crazy the players. you
Dan 41:14
Coach, a follow up is kind of going back to our very first conversation about roster management and building systems. When you have someone like Tavares, who obviously you played a certain way because of his skill set, but then as we talked about, there’s 10 to 12 minutes a game where maybe his sub is in and doesn’t have the same skill set.
And you either want to play the same way defensively or differently based off their skill set. How did you think about when he was out and how you still had the same type of coverages?
Pablo Lasso 41:43
Like I told you, you have different plans. That’s for sure. But for me, same plan stays for me. That doesn’t mean it’s not going to change.
For example, let’s say you have Tabares, and you have Kiliam Hayes, the guy from Salghis. Completely different. One is very athletic, somehow a little bit like I had before, back on the years, with the slaughter. Very good on one-on-one situations. And let’s say they’re playing when Tabares is not on the floor. OK, you have to adjust to different situations. But my first plan will be in front, knowing that probably I will have to adjust some or create different situations on defense. But I think it’s important that the team know that the main job on defense is this.
I’m going to put you on extend. When we had Tabares and Aion, you know that Aion was probably great on even doubling the ball handler. And a lot of times, he used to come up to me and puddle, let me double him. I’m going to get the ball from him. He doesn’t know what to do. Let me double. And I was like, Boush, relax. Do this, going to be good. Make sure everybody knows what you’re going to do. OK, but then on the last play of the game, maybe I will tell him, Boush, you want to double? Yes, I want to double. OK, so everybody knows that he’s going to double. So I think a lot of times we’re talking about what do you do with Tabares or without Tabares or with Aion or whoever play it. I think what is more important is that the rest of the team knows what’s up. Not only, let’s say, what we’re doing with Tabares, what we’re doing without Tabares. I think it’s very important that we all know what’s going to happen.
Pat 43:20
Coach would maybe the help on the role or, you know, when it’s Tavares and you want to maybe play the pick and roll more two on two, but if Tavares is out now with that change, maybe let’s say the other three players are on the perimeter around the pick and roll and how they help on the role. Well, for me.
Pablo Lasso 43:36
on two, pick and roll situation is finished. For me, two on two won’t exist. It would be two against five. We’re applied to defend it as a team.
It cannot be, let’s say, this guy getting killed on the pick and roll, this guy is getting knocked. He is killing the team. Because at the end, if I want to stop the ball handler, I will stop the ball handler. I will double him. I will say, take the ball away from him, and that would finish. But the other team is not stupid. They would pass the ball around and they would find an open shot. So at the end, for me, it’s very important how to defend any situation as a team, not only with, let’s say, Tabares. Okay, this is principle. But if you’re defending, let’s say, a guy like Mike James, that most of his shots are gonna be created on ISO situation, then you better put him a good defender. Sure.
Pat 44:29
Absolutely. Coach, my last question, just with, again, playing this coverage with Tavares where you’re more staying at the rim, what concern, maybe looking at the other three players around the pick and roll, the pocket pass kind of hitting that, maybe the short roll, were you concerned at all or would that be an emphasis where you would want that third player really to pull in, take help on that pocket pass?
Pablo Lasso 44:50
Okay, pocket pass, there is some teams that play the pocket pass and you see they practice that and you see from the beginning that it’s part of the offense. For example, who is probably one of the best passes, let’s say, best pocket pass passes in Europe, Danny Perez from Andres, why? He goes to his left and he throws that pocket pass perfect. So it becomes not a pop, not a role, but it creates an abandonment.
And for any kind of defense, that pocket pass creates a lot of difficult because, okay, leaves the guy open, close to the basket, maybe let’s say not a pop, not a let’s say a three-pointer situation, not a role, where he’s probably more an alley-oop or something, but Danny Perez is a great creator out of it because he plays the pick and roll, he sees it, boom, pocket pass. That’s something that you talk and a lot of times it’s very important to use the hands to don’t create, don’t let him create that pocket pass. A lot of times defense, we talked about defense, we don’t talk about the use of the hands. And a lot of times those deflections are very important to don’t let him create opportunities where they’re going to get abandoned. And pocket pass is something that you have to control because it has become a part of the offense that is very difficult to defend and the teams are using it even more every year. And I told you the example of Manresa because probably it’s a team that are watch that is using it more and is creating a lot of advantages playing that situation out of the pick and roll.
Dan 46:17
Coach, you’re off the start, so ever sit hot seat. Thanks for playing that game with us. That was a lot of fun. Enjoyed your answers there.
Pablo Lasso 46:23
Bless her for me. Bless her to talk about basketball.
Dan 46:26
Yeah, that’s our last question that we ask all the guests is what’s the best investment that you’ve made in your career as a coach.
Pablo Lasso 46:36
My best investment is watching basketball almost every day. Why is my best investment? Because I have to deal with my wife to do it. And that’s not cheap.
I don’t know. Last night, for example, I was watching Ulm against Brescia, I think. It was German team against Italian team. You know for me, it’s my biggest investment. I’m a basketball free probably since I was like this stop. And that’s the way I am. And my best investment is probably that I love this game and love to watch games. And there is a lot of games that I don’t see anything, but I still watch.
Dan 47:25
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