In this special episode we hear from some of the best coaches in Europe who have shared their insights on a variety of topics on the podcast over the years. Hear from Tuomas Iisalo, Ettore Messina, Sergio Scariolo, Israel Gonzalez, Pablo Laso, Chus Mateo, Andrea Trinchieri, and Sito Alonso on flow vs. sets, principles of play, the role of a leader, and much more.
Transcript
Pablo Lasso 00:00
We try to have like a period where we reverse engineer the whole process and we start with the end in sight. So we start with the closeout decisions, penetration, automatics. These are huge for us because they’re going to be the end product of a good offense.
Dan 00:19
Welcome to Slappin’ Glass, where today, we’re consolidating learnings from some of the best coaches in Europe we’ve had on the podcast over the last few years, exploring how they teach flow concepts, layering and set actions, understanding the mechanisms of a team, hard, but respectful coaching, and much more.
We’ll hear from the lights of Etteray Messina, Cito Alonzo, Andrea Trincheri, Pablo Lasso, Israel Gonzalez, Juice Mateo, Sergio Scariolo, and we’ll dive back in with former Paris Head Coach and newly hired Memphis Grizzlies assistant, Fomasi Salo, on how he thinks about early season fundamental building blocks needed in teaching a team to play with pace, structure, and detail.
Pablo Lasso 01:04
After this, we go to what we would call like actions or spacings. So we will start working on specific spacings. In our case, the last four years, they’ve been what we call a wing pick and roll. So that’s an empty side pick and roll with all three other guys outside the three-point line. Then we have a spread pick and roll, which I believe a lot of teams call shake pick and roll or angled pick and roll like 60 degrees going to the two side. And then we use a top pick and roll with two lifts behind either directly in the middle or a little bit more toward the elbow. So we start working on those three. And there’s no specific reason for that. They are featured heavily in our offense, but they’re also stuff that makes up the most of also the opponent stuff in the BBL. So you see those very often. And if you don’t do a good job with those defensively also, you’re going to be in a world of trouble. After all of this, after we feel pretty comfortable with that, we’ll add like an entry to it. So then we’re talking about something like when we use a lot, like a four-two pin into a guard guard or a pass handoff action or an Iverson or diamond. And that stuff is added on top of that because then you have the coverage decisions already down, at least against your own team.
And you know also that once you’ve created an advantage through the pick and roll, you know what to do with it as a team. So you have very strong team reactions.
Pat 02:31
I’d like to go back to what you said earlier with your early offense and I’d really like to hear your thoughts on actions you like to run in the early offense and the spacing you like to use.
Pablo Lasso 02:43
I’ll start with the weakness. So I know a lot of coaches don’t run early offense because it’s easily becomes like mush, you know, that you don’t have a fast break and then you’re just kind of running a drag screen with no tempo and no details and everything like this. So it takes a lot of time and effort to combine those two things that they’re not eating from each other, that you have clear designations between fast break and early and then the set place. We try to have like a five lane fast break that we are filling in all of the lines. The ball is generally on the, not on the wing lane, but what we call a guard lane or a spread lane. And then the middle is reserved for the five men. So the five men’s decisions are pretty simple. If he can beat his own guy, he’ll rim run. If he can’t beat him, most likely he’ll drag. Now this will change a little bit if we have an empty corner. So we’ll swing all of the guys in one position forward, the ball handler will be closer to the sideline. And then we’ll run the two and the three generally to the corners. And the four will be spaced out in a position that we call spread spacing. So he will be pretty wide on that. The early offense actions that we use, we have, like I said, our flow offense, where we go from that spread ball screen, which is usually one to five. We go to a wing ball screen with the two, four, and then we come back to the top for another one, five, but in a different angle. So the big usually is coming from the elbow and a point guard is receiving the ball. That’s, I think probably the most common. We also run like a ball screen motion where we move the ball side to side. And we have obviously different reads on that. That comes a little bit later. And then depending on the personnel that we have that year, also we will run some off screens, like let’s say a dummy drag, what we call the dummy drag. So the guy is not actually screening, but he’s wide pinning out of that. I think this is referred to as the beer screen in the US terminology. That’s something that we also use. And then if we have wings that are bigger or there’s a mismatch in transition, we might look for the post up right away and just get into space and play out of that. Most of it is dictated by understanding what type of advantage we’re dealing with.
This is something that came from soccer and positional play that you can have like a numerical advantage. You can have a qualitative advantage or you can have a positional advantage. And we’ve kind of translated them into, you can have numbers, which most of the time obviously happens in transition. So that should be the main mechanism. So you should try to create that as much as possible, like a four on three or three on two or obviously the best one is one against zero because everybody else can start matching up already. So even a five on four type of situation. And the second one is, do you have a match up that works for you? So that would be the case, for example, with this post up in transition or a front room seal for the five men against a wing who had to help in.
Pablo Lasso 05:40
So that would be something that we look for. If we have that right away, we can go into it or guard is matched up or a guard has a big man who he can take off the dribble and we can just space it out and we know what we’re doing. And then the last one is the action, you know, and then that would be one of those four mentioned things.
Dan 06:01
This important topic of teaching early season building blocks was also touched upon in our conversation with Olympia Milano head coach, Ederay Messina, in which he details his thoughts on how the best teams ultimately learn to play through principles of flow and spacing before adding in specific sets. Here he is discussing how he builds out his early season playbook.
Ederay Messina 06:24
First of all, I do not believe that winning basketball is played as a section of place, but winning basketball is related to how you will play the basic actions of the game. So, side picker roles, top picker roles, low picker roles, how you play against drop, against push, against switch, how you space in all those different situations, how you space with the ball in the post, how you attack the switches is very big. So, to go back to your initial question, my playbook. Usually, here’s what happens. I work on the concept, on the spacing concept, right from day one. So, here is how we space when we run a picker role at the slot versus a drop. Here’s how we space and, of course, how we execute when they push us to the sideline, when they ice us, okay? This is what we do when they switch. So, as you will know, some actions slash play works well against one kind of defense. It’s not good against another kind of defense. So, the playbook, early in the season and for the first probably four, five, six months, I try different things. I have concepts, and then I try different things slash plays who can help me to attack against those defenses. And then, in the second part of the season, I cut down to, I don’t know, couple of plays versus drop, couple of plays versus push, three, four post-op plays, top picker role, elbow picker role, a couple of exit plays for the shooters, and we put everything together. One of the biggest difficulties now with modern defenses, let’s say what everybody, what top teams do in Europe, they start the defensive action with one picker role coverage. For example, ice, you know, they ice the ball to the baseline. And then, after the first picker role, or after the first ball reversal, or when the clock is down to 14, they switch everything. Now, if you go by place, you should have a play that helps you to attack the ice and then attack the switch. It’s a mess. Now, people are all thinking, I think we need to have a concept of how we space to attack a push. For example, picker role in the slot, they ice you or they push you towards the baseline. First of all, do you want to keep the guy in the corner or do you want to empty the corner? Because that dictates completely different reactions. Second, the position of the B is at the point of the screen or is lower that will allow us, for example, a cross back. Do we have players who are capable to cross back against a push? Because that will require one space. If we have players who need more space to attack the baseline, we need to clear that corner. I don’t want to make it too difficult. Those are thoughts that players, we cannot board them with this. But we as a coaches, going back to the concept of trying to use our strength, we need to know that. Or we need to say to ourselves, do I want to teach the cross back to my two point guards? Okay. I don’t care if the beginning, they will not be efficient. Okay. And they would rather have more space and just attack downhill. But I think that to be better at your league level, you have to, let’s say, have control of your cross back.
Ederay Messina 09:31
So I’ll keep the guy in the corner and it will work the first weeks to create cross back opportunities. Maybe the players might struggle at the beginning. So keep going. I rather work on the actions and on our ability to create the new efficient space through the action, reading what the difference does. Other coaches, they prefer to have a sequence of plays and they from the bench, see what the opponent does and call the different plays. I’m not fine with that. I respect it. I don’t think it’s the right thing to do, but that’s the way it is. My point is, if you keep calling plays and in the middle of the play, they change defense. Like now, all the top teams are doing what we do. You gotta have some very good play that allows you to face two different kinds of defense and the same play. So at the beginning, it will be less efficient to teach, to read and react. And you will be more efficient just executing plays. That’s what I in the long run, if you can read and react to all these situations, your team is going boom.
Dan 10:41
This idea of the importance of teaching base concepts was also explored with former Real Madrid and current Basconia head coach Pablo Lasso, in which he cautions against simply stealing clever sets before understanding the true makeup of your team.
EHC 10:56
For me, it’s more concepts, and I’m going to explain why. I’m not a set guy. Listen, if we’re getting internet, we’re going to get all the set plays that everybody plays. And for me, concepts are a bold place, a bold set place. That means that Pablo Lasso doesn’t have set plays. That’s stupid. Pablo Lazo has set plays. You need it for the game.But for me, it’s very important that people on your team, your players understand the concept that you want, the concept that you’re using defensively and offensively, because that’s the way you build the team, not only by creating set plays. I’m going to put you on an example that I hate. Why? All of a sudden, we all see the same set play on almost every team you watch. That cannot work. Maybe that set play is great for, I don’t know, for Unicaca, and it’s not good for Bamber. Unicaca and Bamber, totally different concepts, totally different basketball, totally different league. So I think it’s very important that as a coach, your set plays are for sure there, but it cannot be just, okay, I have this great set play. It’s funny because when I watch NBA games, a lot of times I don’t see plays. For me, it’s a play. Maybe I remember one, but probably what I’m watching is the concept, the concept of how to fill in the corners, how to create movements away from the ball. How do we want to attack on that situation on the pick and roll? For me, those concepts are about the play, about the set play, like I told you at the beginning. That doesn’t mean Pablo doesn’t play set plays. No. And I’m going to put you on another example. Don’t you guys think that all the scouters are going to scout by set plays?
Dan 12:39
Yeah, of course, yeah.
Ederay Messina 12:40
So, very simple, if you got a set play and the ball got to go from 5 to 1, and if you cut those passing lanes, then the set play is not going to work, no, you have to work on your concept in front of your set plays.
Dan 12:55
Okay, so concepts, principles, and spacings over sets, but that’s a lot easier said than done. As most of the coaches mentioned, it’s a lot messier and difficult to teach this way, especially earlier in the season. So what are some thoughts on basic rules to get started and how to keep things flowing mid-possession in the offense stalls? For that, we turn to current Alba Berlin head coach Israel Gonzalez on teaching the free game and re-triggering actions.
Pat 13:24
Coach, you mentioned when you’re exploring that you really just will give them basic rules of the free game. Could you just elaborate on what are some of these, the basic rules that you put in and then just allow them to play?
Israel Gonzalez 13:36
I like a lot, don’t stop the ball in the middle of the court. I always like to see my teams changing the ball from one side to the other side. And then I try to explain to them that we dribble just to penetrate. We don’t dribble to pass.
In some situations, we can dribble to prove our passing lane, especially when to play low post. And I give them the basics of how to play the handoff, how to play the pick and roll, and how to play when the ball goes inside. And with these few rules, I let them play. Go.
Pat 14:06
Coach, I’d like to come back to what you said previously and what we obviously noticed too is that you’re not a set heavy team. You play, like you said, through ideas. And what we appreciate about your team though is the ability to flow to the next idea or re-trigger the offense, where if the first concept or the first action isn’t there, your ability of your team to re-space and get to another action. And I think that’s a hard thing for coaches to teach and to get their team to do. So I would just really be interested to hear how you help your team get to the next idea or the re-trigger their offense. Good question.
Israel Gonzalez 14:45
Probably having the habit since the beginning to don’t have the recipe. I don’t give the recipe, they have to look for the recipes. And I like to force them to think and to find the solutions a lot of times. So I think this is a process where it’s more difficult, where it’s a process where we make a lot of more mistakes, especially in the beginning, and then we’re growing. I do like this because I really believe that the normal way to improve the teams, we can see this align like this, okay? But we go a little bit more like this, more flat, more flat, but then when we are learning, we can go higher. Why? Because at the end, players learn to play basketball, don’t learn to play a play. And that’s why I think like this, they become better players because they know to read better the game and understand better the game. And if they get better at the end, the team is better and the performance is better. That’s why we started the season last year. Not very good, but we finished great.
Dan 15:46
Furthering on these thoughts about helping players improve and reading the game for the long-term betterment of the team, we’ll listen in on current Murthia head coach, Cito Alonso, in which he reflects on how coaches can be a little more patient in providing solutions to players as they learn to read and react to the game in front of them.
Pat 16:05
You mentioned something that you give them the power to make these decisions that you hope they understand what the defense is doing. What ways maybe in practice are you helping your players understand and read the defense or figure out the defense in real time?
Israel Gonzalez 16:19
It’s very difficult, my philosophy sometimes, but when I was in Barcelona, for me, was about experience because they fired me too soon. And the first thing I did is try to think why sometimes the players, like you say, are not understanding the things they have to do depending on the difference. Maybe you think after leaving Barcelona, I go to see different top-level practice. Euroleague practices, Euroleague coaches, but no. I did a different thing. I went to go mini basket, 11, 10, 9 years old practices, because I think in this moment, and I want to start for this situation because for me, it’s important. When you are a coach with this age in this level, you don’t know if they are able to do different things or not because you want to be the main actor in the practice. I watch maybe 11 or 12 teams in this time, and maybe two or three coaches are different, but the rest of the coaches organize everything that are happening on the court in this practice. So if the player, imagine one girl, one boy, 11 years old, realizes he or she has a problem, the coach immediately gives them the solution. And for me, this is the first problem we have. When you are a child, everybody thinks it’s the best moment to understand or to learn different language because it’s the best moment because your mind is open and is the best. Why, in this age, we don’t give them the opportunity to think without our help because after when they are in different levels, they have this problem. They don’t read well the difference or they have some of them know because they are survivors, because they are smart, even with this problem. But I think this is the first thing we have to understand as coach. And I am talking about myself. In the first part of his career, of this career, they have to look for the solution, for the set. The other team is defending ice defense. If you can roll or double team, and they have a problem in the first part of the career when they are younger, wait a little bit. Before you talk with them about the solution, wait three, four, five, even six times to realize the reaction they are having with this problem. And sometimes it’s a short price how they are looking for the solution better than you.
Dan 19:13
And we’ll start with one of the most interesting conversations we’ve had on the podcast with current Zalgiris head coach Andrea Trincheri, in which he gives some terrific metaphors about understanding your team and building an identity.
Israel Gonzalez 19:27
For me, it’s making a comparison. It’s like when you go to an open-air market and you have 10 people coming to dinner, but you don’t know the menu. So you go there, you see what there is to buy, what vegetable, what meat, what fish. And then when you understand what is the main course, you go to buy side stuff, like you want curry, you want chili, you want things that can boost your main course. Then you come home and you put together a recipe. But before you have the piece of meat in your hand or the piece of fish, and then you choose what you’re going to put with this, you don’t know. So of course you want to have a winning mentality. Of course you want to have good habits, the culture, of course the right culture, but how to get to this point? I don’t like general stuff. Ah, we have to have winning mentality. What is winning mentality? For you, a winning mentality is something. So I hate to lose. And for you, winning mentality is I want to win. It’s totally different because when I hate to lose, you have to ride this motivations. From this, you can build something. So I don’t like general stuff. I believe that basketball is going to a very situational game, a very situational approach. So every person is different. Every player is different. Every player needs your help to find a niche. Okay. The boundaries are the organization, how you want to play, but the coaches that has only one system are struggling now. Adaptation is a great talent.
Pat 21:05
Coach, within the situational approach, I’m really curious how you get the player buy-in, especially when you’re going to ask, I mean, you obviously want to play to their strengths, but you will at certain points ask for them to sacrifice, but then you also need them to play hard. So how do you get that balance of maybe taking things away, taking minutes away, but still getting the buy-in?
Israel Gonzalez 21:27
And you need them to play hard, but sometimes they don’t. This shit happens, right? My point is before being a player, you are a person and you carry with yourself a full bag of stuff, expectations, strength, flaws, fears. So I use precision to understand why I’m in front. I have a frame and I don’t have the colors of my painting and I will choose the color of the painting while I’m learning every day. So somebody needs great discipline. There are players that need, we do like this because this will give us the win. Some other ones, why I have to do like this? Because for them, the first priority is to feel good. And then, and you have players like this, the society is self oriented. Okay. This stuff, this created monsters and we are monsters too. I’m not judging. So everything is self oriented. What I, what is around me, what I can do for myself. So you would not change at 25, 26, 30 years old person. You have to cope, but you can through learning your personnel, you can learn them and through this, you can find a way to push them, to be efficient for your team and be efficient from themself, because at the end of the day, if the team wins, every player is going to be successful. They’re going to have a better contract, better team or whatever. Now, nobody wants the 20 point guy that can score and his team as a losing record. Nobody trusts them. Now you can scout players so well that you don’t want the losing effort. Coaches doesn’t want this. So it’s complicated to me. First thing is to understand who I am in front.
Dan 23:30
When it comes to building a foundation of trust and the ultimate role of the leader, there may be no better example than Real Madrid head coach Chus Mateo, who has led Real Madrid to three straight early championship games, winning one of them. Here, he discusses the importance of leading by example and being a rock for your players deep into a season.
Israel Gonzalez 23:50
For me, the most important thing is to be honest with them. I have to tell them my thoughts, what I think about them, what are my expectations from them, which is going to be the role. Of course, during the season, everything can change, but I can’t lie to them. I can tell them, hey, you are going to be the star of this team. And then suddenly, he is not playing. No, I got to be honest. I got to play and to practice day by day. And tell them that think only in tomorrow, today and tomorrow, no more. Because this is so long. In my opinion, the most important thing is to show with the example that you are the first one that is working there every day. And that you are not going to lie to them. You are not going to fail them. And try to solve the problems that is going to be during the way. There will be too many problems, and probably are some problems that are personal problems. That, of course, you got to be close to them in order to be able to be available to solve it, too. But for me, it’s important the diary work, you know what I mean? Day by day is very important. And they have to understand, you have to show that you are good on the season. Not only one day. The first two months is perfect. Sometimes I remember too many players came towards one team, and the first two months were amazing. And in the important moments when there are problems, and really, they have to be the first that are trying to solve it, they disappear. And this is something that I don’t want to do. In the bad moments, I got to be there. I got to be the first one. And this is a way, I think, that you have to lead something. Not too many words, but showing with your attitude that you are going to be there, ready to help my teammates and the moment that they need to be helping.
Dan 25:42
To close, Virtus Bologna and current Spanish national team head coach Sergio Scariolo highlights how hard, demanding coaching must be done in a way that is fair and honest, and how coaches at even the highest levels must consistently and constantly work to build trust between player and coach. Thanks for watching!
Israel Gonzalez 26:03
Well, I think you’re going to be fair, you’re going to be loyal, you’re going to be straight, you’re going to be respectful. So you mix up all this together. I mean, you cannot be hard and disrespectful. You cannot be hard and unfair or not clear about what you are asking to apply or promise something which you are not going to deliver or not be consistent in your request and change ideas depending on if the shot goes in or not. That’s a good shot. No, that’s a bad shot. Wasn’t a bad shot. Yeah, but you know, like sometimes I try to be solid, consistent. I try to be demanding. I try to be off the floor available and prove also, not just like, how are you? Just showing them that if they really need me, they will really find me. If I feel that they need me, even if they don’t tell me, I will be there and asking them if I can do something or proposing them to do something to help them. So, and then this is your internal, I would say, okay, you call it detector, right? Or my tell you, hey, you are being too hard, you need to slow down a little bit and make him feel that you are holding his back. Or vice versa, you have been too soft to understand it and then excuse it. And now it’s time go back to the demanding part of your relationship with him. I mean, the end of the day, players are not looking for a friend. Players are looking for someone who might help them become better players and win. This is what they are looking for. I know that I can have an experience or links or knowledge or connections which might help them outside the floor when they might need them. For sure, they get a feel that when they talk, I will listen. And when they show they don’t agree with something, I would consider what they are telling me. Not just saying, okay, now I’m talking. I mean, oh, but this is my time and this is the important part. No, important part is what you are telling me because you are giving me tools to go back at you in the right way because I know what is moving you, what is motivating you, what is pushing you and what is not. Listening very important part of building up a relationship, making the players feel comfortable with the fact that whatever will be said, we stay within those two guys. Hear me.
Dan 28:45
We thank all of you for the support of the show so far this year. Those interested in more of our content can visit SlappinGlass.com to sign up for our free newsletter, follow us on our social media accounts, or join coaches and staffs, including a recent national champion from over 60 countries, all leveling up with SG Plus this offseason. Thanks again for the support, have a great week coaching, and we’ll see you next week on Slapping Glass. Oh, do we have a name yet for this thing? I have like Slapping Back Board. Slapping Glass. Slapping Glass. That’s kind of funny. I like that. Slapping Glass.