Slappin’ Glass sits down this week with the Head Coach of Xavier MBB, Sean Miller! In this highly insightful conversation the trio dive into Coach Miller’s thoughts on all things about handling pressure, including playing through the “gray areas” of it, and discuss transition defensive concepts and teaching guards to hedge ballscreens during the always fun “Start, Sub, or Sit?!”
Transcript
Sean Miller 00:00
One of the mistakes I made playing against Oregon as a coach too many times is worried about not turning it over and getting more in a structured set after their press. And it worked against this because you look at that clock, it’s like 12, 11, 10. And we never ever felt comfortable.
And when your players don’t feel comfortable, you know, that’s not a good thing because inevitably the next phase that comes is you have these unforced turnovers. So now they’re creating turnovers because you’re not comfortable. You’re not really taking advantage of what maybe you can take advantage of. And everything about the game feels tentative.
Dan 02:03
And now, please enjoy our conversation with Coach Sean Miller. Coach, been a fan for a long time. Both of us have. We’re excited to have you on today, so thank you for making the time for us.
Sean Miller 02:24
I’m glad to be on, Dan, and congratulations to you on becoming the Head Coach at Chapman and, you know, Patrick and Dan, we’ve talked about this outside of the recording, but I’ve been a big fan of Slapping Glass. I’ve been a member of everything you can be a member of, I think, for the last three, maybe four years. I will tell you, in some ways I’m intimidated to be on because the level of detail that you guys talk in terms of and some of the guests that you’ve had on, it’s so sophisticated. It’s such a high level of basketball that, you know, you come on this show, you can’t be stumbling around when you talk. I’m honored and in some point feel a little pressure here to deliver.
Dan 03:01
Thank you, Coach. Well, no doubt, we know you will. We know your basketball mind and we’re excited to have you. So thank you very much.
We want to dive in with this. And actually I have you to thank for a lot of things. Remember, I was at a clinic about a decade ago, watching you speak on something we’ll ask about in a second. But I remember at that clinic thinking, man, if I could ever ask him more detailed questions about this after this clinic, I would love to someday. And hence was sort of the beginnings of wanting to do something like this. And so I remember at that clinic, you were speaking on facing full court pressure, some traps, things like that. And I actually would love to dive in there. And that is helping your team attack odd zones, traps, pressure, things that are coming at you outside of the norm from a tactical way, but also just from preparing your team to play stylistically and kind of anything and everything within that.
Sean Miller 03:48
I’ll give you the background on that. You know, I played for my dad as a high school coach. My dad was a point guard, became a great high school coach in the state of Pennsylvania and, you know, being the coach’s son, especially growing up when I did, you’re constantly conversing. And I think my dad, knowing that I was going to be a point guard and he really trained me in some of the lessons that I have as a coach today, really started with what I learned from him in ninth and 10th grade of dealing with people and players that are quicker than you dealing with traps so that, you know, you can handle pressure. Cause as he pointed out to me as the point guard, you either the source of pressure or you take it and, you know, you, the hammer or the nail and like the best point guards are those that you cannot rattle and cannot pressure can’t speed up, or if they do speed up, it’s bad for the opponent. Right. And you always want to be able to represent that same thing defensively. Like if you can apply pressure and disrupt and force the other team to not be as aggressive, well, those are the best point guards that play our game. So with that, when you talk Dan about handling full court pressure as just an individual player or recognizing the traps, that’s the beginning of it. And you could tell by probably my answer, he took that serious. I took it serious. And then when I played at the university of Pittsburgh and the big East, I lived it, you know, when you’re getting, you know, Syracuse late in the game, it always comes to one, two, one, one, you have like Derek Coleman and Billy Owens and Sherman Douglas, Stevie Thompson out there. And, you know, your name’s Sean Miller and you’re getting trapped. You better have a little bit of thought process behind what you’re about ready to do. So that’s the beginning of it. And what I would start with is just this. If you’re dealing with full court pressure as an individual player and you’re a secondary ball handler, or you are the point guard, being able to get open, being able to catch the ball and not waste your dribble, but reverse pivot, front pivot, play out a triple threat, even though you’re 94 feet from the rim and not allow that player to speed you up to know that, you know, we’re not going to go left and right and be zigzagged. I’m going to go three, four, five dribbles as fast as I can. I’m going to stop and I’m going to open up a gap and then I’m going to initiate the offense. So whether it’s something like that, or when you’re playing against traps, having a better understanding of where the other people are, I do think it’s incredibly important that as a coach, you train your guards and as a point guard, that you understand the importance of that part of the game.
Dan 06:16
One of the things I’ve always interested in is when a team is pressuring you or sending random traps or whatever it is, handling the pressure as a guard, first and foremost, like you mentioned, but then there’s that kind of gray area in your offense where you kind of break the pressure, but your offense might be a little disjointed because they’re not in the normal spots that they’re used to attacking. And then making that decision, whether you’re going to attack an advantage and place, I wouldn’t say sped up, but look for a quicker shot, first pull it out, get into something offensively. And I guess working with your team on that little gray area when you’re facing a pressure team.
Sean Miller 06:51
Great question. My test, and I don’t know if I’ve ever passed it, but Dana Altman in Oregon, I think from a defensive perspective, does the best job in college basketball of mixing full court pressure to take you out of your rhythm. I think his way of saying it is he makes you play left-handed. And when I was at Arizona, we obviously played him twice a year. But when I was at Xavier the first time, he also was the head coach at Creighton. And what made him so unique is he could put a press up at three quarter court level and shrink the shot clock and not really try to turn you over, but to your point get you out of sorts and rhythm. Yet he could also come full court and trap and rotate and deflect and steal and make the game chaotic. And within the same game, you had to be able to maneuver against both. But I think a couple points going against any type of pressure that I really try to share. And a lot of my lessons are through failure going against him. Don’t underestimate the power of the shot clock. As it’s now at 30 and in college basketball, you’re playing against the other team, but you’re also playing against the clock. So if you have an advantage through their full court pressure, take the advantage and play the game and make good decisions. What’s a good shot? What’s a bad shot? When do I attack? When do I not attack? I don’t think there’s anything more important as a coach to really be able to get across to your team than that part of it right there, because they have to pay a price for making the game 94 feet. They can’t play the game 94 feet and you never strike, put a foul on somebody or trade an open three point shot or an advantage at the rim ever. And as they’re able to do that and not give anything up, I think the game tilts to them in a big way. So the shot clock, right? Attack when you’re supposed to attack, see the advantage for what it is and drill that and get that across. I think the second part of it is, Dan, it’s what you said where they pressed you, but they’re still playing five on five. There is no advantage. Now what? And that’s where if you try to be too structured and that would be a mistake that I’ve made plenty of times, you’re running things, but now it feels funny to the five players on the court. It actually feels funny for you because you had to do the press break first, the attack, the pressure first, and now you’re running something second that you never run second, right? So the reset becomes sometimes again, problematic into the defense’s advantage into your disadvantage. So I think sometimes as a control freak or somebody who’s trying to micromanage the game on offense to some degree, attacking pressure, it has to be create the advantage, take advantage of when it presents itself and when they press and then they make the game five on five, play through concepts and keep the ball moving. That’s what I’ve learned the most. So it’s A, advantage B, when there is no advantage, the ball has to have energy and move it. And I think what you find when you play that second way, they’re not nearly as adept at matching up and being good in their half court defenses. Maybe they would be, if you press the reset button, walk the ball back to half court and now they look at that clock and say, we’re winning.
Pat 10:13
On that note, with that when to attack, when to not attack, and that reset, you mentioned building in concepts. What kind of concepts would you go to? And what I’m thinking about, too, is like you’ll see teams might kind of trap and like the ball is thrown to your big. Is it always for you, okay, point guard, come reset, or like, okay, he has it. Here’s some concepts. So we’re just now flowing with structure.
Sean Miller 10:34
Flowing with structure for sure. And I think like in the spirit of time, whatever your concepts are, I think it’s important that your players understand that having the ball move, having players move, and them truly understanding their role in that ball and player movement, that’s the key. Your rules don’t have to be the same as mine in large part because I may have a center who can really shoot a three. You may have a center that the only thing he can do is catch lobs. I may have more of a true small forward who’s limited in his ability to dribble. You may have three guards and they’re all interchangeable. So I think whatever concepts we have, the number one rule would be that it works for our personnel. But I do think, you know, Coach Patino at St. John’s, at Louisville, Kentucky, all the places he’s been at, a lot like Dana Altman, he uses full court pressure to wear you down, to create turnovers, to make the game feel funny. The more you coach against that style, the more you understand that your player’s being able to attack with purpose when it presents itself. And when you’re not able to attack with purpose, that you’re able to keep the ball moving and the ball continuing to have energy because their five man will be on your three man, their three man won’t be in help. You can’t a lot of times be good at both, 94 foot pressure and half court man demand defense or match up zone or zone principles. The fact that you can get him going from one thing to the next seamlessly with the ball moving, I think continues to put your own players in the best position to be successful. I tell you that because one of the mistakes I made playing against Oregon as a coach too many times is worried about not turning it over and getting more in a structured set after their press. And it worked against this because you look at that clock, it’s like 12, 11, 10. And we never ever felt comfortable. And when your players don’t feel comfortable, that’s not a good thing because inevitably the next phase that comes is you have these unforced turnovers. So now they’re creating turnovers because you’re not comfortable. You’re not really taking advantage of what maybe you can take advantage of and everything about the game feels tentative. We have a rule here and I had it at Arizona towards my end of the time. It’s called the what rule. And that is, coach, what defense are they in? In other words, it’s full court pressure, it’s half court pressure. Are they in a zone? Are they in a matchup zone? Are they man to man? The what rule is, don’t ever ask me that again, right? The what rule is like, what is he doing guarding me? Think about it in those terms. If this were man to man and he’s six foot 10, 250 pounds and you’re a two guard and he was in front of you, you wouldn’t have to ask me what to do. You would go buy him and make a good play. But sometimes when it’s the tail end of breaking a press or like they go bounce back between zone and man, well, the what rule, what are they in? Don’t ask, just keep the ball moving.
Sean Miller 13:34
We’re gonna play through our concepts in our way and the ball is gonna have energy and we’re gonna attack when the advantage and disadvantage is in front. The other part of the what rule is recognizing I’m 6’9″ 250 and I’m being guarded by the point guard at the tail end of the press. What is he doing guarding our center? Recognize it in strike, right? A big man guarding a guard on the perimeter, like what is he doing guarding me? Recognize the in strike and then not getting into the, look at the bench, what are they in coach? The what rule? No, no, no, we do what we do. Keep the ball moving, attack when necessary. That’s gonna be our way against the team who mixes pressure up like that.
Pat 14:15
You said to attack with purpose philosophically. What does that mean to you? Or what do you express your players? Like what is attacking with purpose?
Sean Miller 14:23
I think advantage, we have a drill we do. I think it’s prevalent throughout college basketball. We call it heat transition, and it begins with a two on one. And there’s always then two offensive players that now enter the court with the one defender. So then it becomes three on two, right? And the two defenders are accompanied by two offensive players that join them and it becomes four on three. And then, again, when we go back, it becomes five on four. And although they’re not necessarily pressing, what it reflects and represents is the numbers advantage that exist when you attack pressure correctly. And you know what to do, how to look for it. So, you know, great example on a two on one, if you’re a great three point shooter, a wide open uncontested three, that might be the best shot we can get. That’s fine. But, you know, let’s not be on a two on one where our four man has the ball and our two man is running with him. Now let’s get the ball to our best ball handler and let’s make the decision and let’s try to get a foul or score at the basket. You know, same thing when you have the numbers advantage four versus three or five versus four. The value of a shot fake, the value of the pass fake, it’s so prevalent because the defense is scrambling and they have an area, not a man. So the kryptonite to guarding an area, not a man is I’m going to fake, I’m going to look, I’m going to distort that group so that they have to cover more ground. And when they do, we’re going to strike with efficiency. The same thing, Patrick, with at the end of, you know, who can do what if I have an elite three point shooter standing in the left corner and I receive a pass on the wing and I have the advantage against the end of a press, I’m going to look at the rim shot fake and I’m going to make a one more pass to him. Why? Because he’s a 40 percent three point shooter and he happens to be a better three point shooter than me. No, no different than, you know, look, we’re not going to just shoot threes at the end of the press. We want to attack the basket through drives or postups as well. And when that presents itself, recognizing it. So I do think there are drills in ways, advantage, disadvantage, that you can build the know how with your team of how to attack the end of a press. And then the other part of that drill, when it goes five on five, you can have the five on five end with some form of zone matchup zone or man. And then that last part teaches what you guys asked me about. And that is, you know, you’re pushing it with pace and now the ball moves. It seamlessly moves.
Dan 16:55
Maybe a slight pivot within all this is kind of the in-game psychology of you and your staff when you’re facing teams like this. Because it can be sometimes difficult as a coach when you’re playing a team that’s pressuring you, getting your out of your rhythm, and you don’t have your nice coming down, your play calls, your flow, where your team’s really having to find their own advantages at times. And I guess the balance between understanding in-game when you may need to have a little more control and call something or have them pulled out to get a good look versus let them continue to find the advantage against the pressure and kind of that balance of time score, all those things that might go into it.
Sean Miller 17:33
Look, when you play against coaches like Dana Altman and Rick Patino, I use them as the example in today’s conversation because both do almost at a Hall of Fame level, how they make the game feel funny. And that’s how I would describe it, unless you’re them and you’re playing that way every day in practice, you have eight games in a row and then you play at ninth game, the ninth game is going to be a little different. I think the biggest point is just to kind of cross it like that and just say, that’s okay. And really, I’ve learned this over my time as a coach as well, that the more that you can familiarize your team with how you attack pressure or how you attack zones or different defenses from the very beginning of your team’s development, that might mean early in the summer or at the beginning of the school year, certainly at the beginning of October in college basketball, when you first begin fall practice, so that you’re not implementing and talking about things for the first time, three days before you play Oregon or two days before you play St. John’s, because if you just think about that, that in and of itself is their greatest advantage, that they’re getting you to do something that’s unfamiliar with your group. So we try to incorporate attacking pressure weekly and then eventually daily in our practices, no different than like we don’t really play zone or rarely play zone defense, but to be able to go against zone defenses regularly, whether it be the scout team or our own team, so that when in fact you approach the non-comfort of Oregon in St. John’s, that your team can be more comfortable than they otherwise would be if you were just getting to it two days before the game. So I think that is the first thing we want to do as a coaching staff, is just to make everybody the most comfortable from this. When we play a team that presses, this is what we do. Do what we do. When we play a team that presses and changes their pressure and mixes their half court and want us to play against our own shot clock, this is what we do and why, and let’s execute it. So I think to have a way, to have like when you build your system, it’s not going to be just your sets against a hard hedge or this is what we do against a traditional two-three zone, but look at it from the perspective of if they full court pressure us and then drop that this is our way of dealing with that and we have a system approach to it.
Pat 21:13
With this pressure, I guess if we look at a zone pressure, what considerations do you give it all to the alignment of the zone press? If it’s a 2-2-1, a 1-2-1-1, the front port alignment, what end factors do you consider? What role does it play, if any?
Sean Miller 21:30
Against presses, generally speaking, our way is to have a player with the ball, to have a sideline option, usually anywhere between 15 to 20 feet up the sideline from where he potentially could be trapped. A middle option, that’s that tight end against the blitz where he just sits there in the open area. And he doesn’t just run to the middle, he runs to the open area, the hole in the middle. And then the inbounder or somebody behind the ball, we call that the crack back. So if you just set it up, and let’s pretend that I’m trapped at some level, at the three quarter quarter full court level in the right side corner, I would want sideline option, up the right sideline, middle option, and my crack back option, which we want to leave it on the basket side of the trap. The other player is the finisher. And most of the time he’s gonna be your big man, and he’s just waiting to catch and use fakes, and be the guy that is a threat that they have to at least accompany and deal with the press defender. So when you think about all the different presses that you can come up with, if our way is to always have sideline, middle, crack back, and then if you hit the crack back, you know, what do you do? In our case, the middle would go wide up the court, the initial sideline would hook middle, and then the initial player with the ball who passed back to the crack back would almost take a one, three, one approach. So the ball’s now in the middle third of the court, and now he has those three outlets, sideline, middle, sideline, that’s really what we do. So what I liked about it is as you mix your presses, all we’re gonna do is continue to remind our team that we want sideline, middle, crack back. And how you get into that can be diverse based on the type of press, full court, three quarter court, man’s own. But it gives a sense of comfort to your team, especially your guards, to know that they’re always covered with those three outlets.
Pat 23:31
Within those outlets, coach, if it hits like the sideline or the middle, are you making any sort of differentiation in terms of these are the positions like let’s then try to kill or attack the zone versus if you go with the crackback, we’re going to, you know, react accordingly, like you detailed and just try to systematically break the zone.
Sean Miller 23:48
No doubt. So that advantage, disadvantage that we talked about earlier of when to attack and when not to attack, when that ball hits up to the second line, which would be the sideline option or the middle option, they turn and face and they play the game and they finish it. So as I say that the one tweak that we’ve made is if you put the slowdown press up against us in Oregon, does it again really well where they’re not necessarily trying. To turn you over unless you give it to them, but they clearly are trying to take you out of your rhythm and shrink the clock. With that, the finisher, now we move and we put a score there, right? So having a threat up the court where if he catches it, he can drive the bigs back to the wet rule. You know, you catch an advanced pass and a guy, six foot nine, 240 pounds closes out at you and there’s very little help. And you’re an elite wing player and shooter. You’re not going to put the ball above your head and dribble it out, right? I mean, you’re going by him and that’s the defense’s greatest fear, right? So you’re choosing where to put your guys in their area. So at first, what we did and I did too much as a coach is we stayed with the sideline, middle crack back, didn’t worry about who was at the other end, but they were able to have their cake needed too. They slowed us down. They took us out of our rhythm and we didn’t get enough points or attack opportunities with our five man, a traditional five man back there to attack it. So as we moved our personnel and had more of a wing threat, it allowed us to play a little faster to get more attack opportunities. And quite frankly, I don’t think they were nearly as confident in their press when we did that versus just being traditional.
Pat 25:39
When you would switch out and put the score there, where did you line him up? What were you telling him to try to make himself available as you guys transitioned up against the zone?
And then my second question is then where did you put the five man? And how did you work with him then in the back court, whether it was middle or sideline?
Sean Miller 25:57
Great question. So if you think about it, you really don’t need the sideline middle crack back because they’re not trapping and they’re not really anything in the back court, especially towards the baseline in the recognition of that right there. It’s not as important that you have those three areas covered. So what we did is we kept the five man. And again, if I had more of a skilled five man, maybe we could tweak it. But we kept our five man more on the block and baseline, the dunker so that he still remained the finisher. But he also, Patrick could be a screener as well now. And then what we had is our wing player who could change sides, almost go corner to corner or wing to wing or just choose a side and stay there and play off that five man, sometimes using the five as a screener, sometimes using the five as a post up player. And as he would post up the back end of the press, he also is like a screener while he does it. Right. So I can drive the ball. My five man’s posting. He’s kind of taken the secondary defender with him by posting him. And now I can get into paint and be creative. So the other three, what we would do is we would put them in ahead of the ball. So now we would center the ball more. So picture the basketball with your point guard in the middle third, the inbounder column, our four man would go into the middle. We would have a deep guy who could go corner to corner. Our five in was the finisher. And then that secondary ball handler, we would just swing him back and he would just kind of make a two guard look, sometimes making sure he was behind the ball because as the dribble sometimes would approach the half court line, if he would ever get stuck, he needs a partner. So imagine in some ways it almost was like a two guard front with a middle man that could go anywhere, a baseline runner who could sometimes come up to the wing and our five man still being the finisher. So again, when I talked about the guard being in the middle third, that’s where he would start. And then he would almost choose a side, gain ground with the ball, either with the pass or the dribble. The other guard swings behind. So they have each other. The inbounder who went middle is finding that open area. And sometimes he can even move more to the side or middle, sometimes deep middle, sometimes right at half court. And he’s a real threat to hit. If you hit him, we want him to turn and face and play. But what you also have is you have the over the top pass to that wing player or baseline runner that I talked about. And as we either take the advantage there, if it’s there great, if not, then it comes back to which you initially asked. And that is, do you reset or what do you do? I would say absolutely not. You have to cut, you have to move the ball has to have the energy, unselfish cutting, and then whatever philosophy you have in terms of concepts, get right to it.
Pat 28:42
So the concepts did they change at all if you knew it was going back into a zone or going back into a man so let’s say they’re gonna delay. And drop a man or delay drop the zone any of those concepts change.
Sean Miller 28:56
Yes. And if they really did it more than back to the, what rule, you know, coach, what defense are they in? Don’t ask. Play the game. We’ll choose one of those two. Because I think what you find is they give defense doesn’t necessarily have all the answers in that situation either. They’re really banking on getting you to stop moving and hold the ball to reset, have players put the ball over their head to have your five man in an area that he not normally is in to have your guards, you know, not quite as confident or attacking in their mentality to having them more tentative. That’s what they’re banking on more than, hey, if they do this, we’re set. I have found that the more that the ball moves quicker with purpose, the more cutting and the more that the players know what role that they have against doesn’t matter what defense they’re in. You’re going to generate shots, second shots, foul opportunities, and sometimes some of the highest percentage shots you can get simply because it’s very difficult to be good at both full court and half court pressure in the same game.
Dan 30:03
Coach, thanks for your thoughts. It was awesome so far. We’re going to pivot now to a segment on the show that we call Start, Sub, or Sit. And so for those maybe listening for the first time, we’re going to give you three options around a topic, ask you to start one, sub one, and sit one, and then we’ll discuss from there. So, Coach, if you’re all set, we’ll dive into this first one. This first one has to do with a topic that we’ve probably talked with more coaches about this spring and summer than anything, and that’s offensive rebounding and trying to figure out how to get more of them. And so this first Start, Sub, Sit has to do with offensive rebounding considerations. And when you’re thinking about missed shots, Start, Sub, Sit, what’s going to be most important to you? So, option one is how many you’re going to send to the glass. Option two is how you’re going to send them to the glass, the rules that they have. Or option three is really the most important thing is how you’re building your transition defense and who’s getting back rather than who’s going and things like that. Start, Sub, Sit, offensive rebounding considerations.
Sean Miller 31:05
Yeah. So I’ve always aired on the side of worrying more about getting our one and two back, two guards back on the flight of the ball and being good or very good in transition defense. My reason is that the best teams on our schedule, the most dangerous games, the 50 50 games or the most meaningful games will be won and lost in that area more times than not, and the more talented that the other team is, the more vital it is on my end that I don’t allow them to get fouls, dunks, high percentage shots, open three point shots by great shooters in transition. If I can make the game five on five, that allows my team to have the best opportunity to win because we’re going to rebound better. We’re going to defend better in those easy coveted baskets, the talented teams get, you’re not going to be able to get as many. So I’ve always leaned on getting transition defense first, offensive, rebounding second.
Dan 32:05
And coach, between the sub and the sit, your second and third options here, how many and how to send, do you have any thoughts on how many you said one and two are back, but how those three, four, and five are going to the glass and how you talk about that?
Sean Miller 32:19
Before this coming year, we just tried to really emphasize it, in particular our four and five. Full disclosure, if you’re going to lean one way or the other and you’re leaning more towards transition defense, there are times when we might have been able to crash the offensive glass at a higher rate, but I almost feel like it’s a tug of war with your own team. The tug of war for me usually leans towards being the best we can be in transition defense. However, we are aware of three, four, and five, and we sense lack of effort, fatigue, or even the other is we’re doing a great job. We really would love to get three on the glass. Certainly, we are four and five. We want them to give great effort on every shot. The last part, though, is I think with more spacing on offense and teams playing more perimeter players than maybe we have in the past, I would be a coach that’s doing that, that the thought of taking guys from the weak side corner or the break, regardless of whether you’re a point guard or two guard, and allow them, especially on a shot that’s taken from the other side or at the top, allow them to run and crash, knowing that if they don’t get it, they go through the nail and back. I do think there’s some value in it. Teams are having great success doing it, and it makes sense to me just because with more spacing, what you’re not as good at is to get those three guys on the glass on every shot, allowing maybe four or five the opportunity could get maybe that coveted one or two without compromising your transition defense. So I’m investigating that. I wouldn’t say we’ve made our decision, but I think we’re aware that teams are doing that.
Pat 34:01
Sending the one and two back, I’m curious just how you’re helping the one and two, teaching them to get back to where the rim’s protected, but you’re also getting a good pickup point on the ball.
Sean Miller 34:11
So we call it half-back, full-back. We want to leave on the rise of the shot. I wish we were perfect at doing it. It takes a lot of discipline. It really takes stick-to-itiveness on an everyday basis by somebody that’s on your staff, even on our five on zero when we’re implementing our sets or running our offense against no defense. It’s an ideal way to just kill two birds with one stone. And that is, look, on the rise of the shot, or one and two, you have to get back. And with half-back, that means he’s halfway back. He stopped the ball. I would say that a huge big step in front of the NBA three-point line, if not a step and a half, meaning towards half-court is where we would love the ball to be able to be stopped. And we would want on our full-back, he takes the basket with a hole and we want him to be in the paint. And he’s responsible for the deep advanced pass where he gets the bounce out. He’s also, number one, responsible for the rim runner, take away the dunk. The half-back’s responsible for stop the ball, which could include an earlier advanced pass where he takes that one as well. So getting those guys back and allowing three, four, and five to join them is what we try to do.
Pat 35:27
And just to kind of finish out your break, I guess the three, four and five, you know, depending on how they get back, you want the ball, stop the rim, taking care of what’s like the next order of operation that you’re kind of harping on with those three, four and fives.
Sean Miller 35:40
Patrick, it really depends now on the style. It used to be, especially our five, we wanted him to bounce out the fullback. So in other words, an offensive team has a rim runner. Well, in some ways, our transition defense, we’re gonna take our rim runner and make our five, and he’s gonna run, rim the rim, and we don’t want that fullback staying in the lane and giving up threes, right? We want him to hold, and we want him to be able to bounce out. But what we have found is, there are a lot of teams who don’t necessarily have that rim runner. And in that case, your two man may start there or your point guard’s back as the fullback, and he’s gonna bounce out with common sense really early because, hey, coach, there is no rim runner. And with the five, he’s gonna point, fought, match up on the perimeter somewhere. But if they do have a traditional rim runner, getting your front court, especially your five man, to run and bounce out that fullback would be the next priority. And then, look, from there it’s, you tried the offensive rebound, you weren’t successful, run hard, play the game, point, talk, match up, and communicate and make the game five on five. Again, I think the more that we can make the game five on five, the better defensive team we’ll have.
Dan 36:56
In transition have you found certain actions you have to come back to to work on the guard over and over you know at the college level whether there’s a drag or the quick delay and swing and zoom all the stuff the teams run now we’re kind of talking about getting back and getting set five-on-five things that you feel like have needed more attention recently
Sean Miller 37:16
Two things that really stand out for me is I’ll use Yukon as the example with Cara ban who’s an ultra skilled for man. And yet they have a center on the team that if he’s setting a drag screen and rolling to the rim, or if he’s ahead of the ball in rim running, that he can really score the ball like he’s an efficient, good player. It’s difficult, right? Because you know, on one hand, you’re trying to point talk, match up, stop the ball to not give up the open three point shot, which they can kill you with. But yeah, you also got to make sure that you don’t give up the dunk in the play at the rim. So I think when you have a drag screen, and you have that four out spacing with a good center, I just think no matter what they’re doing, especially if they’re running hard with a lot of pace, that becomes problematic.
And I think, you know, coaching against Yukon, people talk a lot about their half court offense, and it’s obviously very good. But if you really look closely when they’re at their best, it’s when they’re in transition, and they get points. And when they get those plus their half court offense, you know, that’s when they’re unbeatable. So I think that stands out. I think the other thing that stands out is Gonzaga, you know, Tommy Lloyds at Arizona now, he’s an extension of that, but Mark Fuett Gonzaga, I don’t think anybody has done that better than, you know, the pressure of a trailer with a rim runner, a trailer with a rim runner, and how that can really dismantle you foul trouble, high lows, and then you know, second action where the ball just can go from transition to first side, second side seamlessly. And that was very difficult for us to guard when we played Gonzaga over my time at Arizona.
Pat 38:58
The 1-5 drag screen. From like a base defense, are you more inclined to try to shoot that guard under a drag screen and see what the defense will do or just kind of lock and chase over and kind of corral with the five?
Sean Miller 39:12
If the guard can beat the screen, whether that’s over the top with very little help, or can get under it, because the one thing about drags, if you’re coaching the offense, it’s not as easy to get a good screen. And then sometimes you almost want that drag screener to just tap and go, right? Run to the rim. So with it, I think defensively it’s if no screen is set, recognize it and be good enough and tough enough and aware enough that you don’t always need a scheme against that drag. Because quite frankly, like they’re pushing it and they have great pace, they’re really not setting it. So don’t scheme it. Beat the screen underneath, beat the screen over to the top. But I do think drag screens guarding the screener, you just want to have an awareness of does the fender guarding the ball need my help? Yes or no. But we usually don’t ask him to hard hedge or do much as much as just be responsible and mostly be in front of the drag screen. Where the worst is when they’re setting a drag screen and your defender guarding the screener is just getting into the play. That’s when it doesn’t matter what you do, you’re done. Back to my point of, can you get back? Can you have the help? Can you stop the ball? I think that’s the most important thing for us.
Pat 41:39
All right, coach, keeping it moving. This next start subset, we call this purposeful cross-matching considerations.
So when you’re heading into game considerations that would cause you to want to cross match or switch up your match ups option one, to keep certain players out of actions, depending on your opponent in the scout, if they’re going to be heavy pick and roll, heavy off ball, and you want to just make sure this player is not involved in those actions. Option two is to create an individual defensive advantage. Your best defender is always going to be on their best defender or your best defender is always going to be in the ball screen or option three is just simply to save a player, usually for offense, you know, one of your better players, you don’t want to burn him having to guard both ends because you know, offensively you need him.
Sean Miller 42:31
I would start with option two and that is to create a defensive advantage against an elite player. I would say that the one awareness that we have learned when you do that is back to what you just finished talking about.
If the team you’re playing is very good in transition and like when you talk cross match, let’s say you have a small forward like we had Colby Jones two years ago and we wanted to put him on Tristan Newton who’s UConn’s point guard. One of the things that I always look at is we’re asking Colby to crash the offensive glass as a three, four, and five, right? Now you’re also asking him to guard an elite guard who pushes the pace. Is that worth trade off of taking him off the offensive glass or can you even do it knowing that there are times when I don’t care how much you want Colby on Tristan Newton, the pace of the game won’t allow it. So I think if we’re going to cross match, we want to have the peace of mind that we’re going to be able to not give up something with our transition defense first, but we would try to do that simply because I think we would want our best defensive player on maybe an offensive player that we look at as problematic. That’s when we would cross match to give ourselves a defensive advantage.
Pat 43:45
You brought up a really good point if you have a three on your one, how does that affect your offensive rebounding your transition defense in this situation? And now if you have a one on a three, where maybe there’s a size elsewhere in that case and that Yukon game, what were the considerations you were thinking about then or the probable fires you were thinking about putting out when you were taking a smaller guy off the ball and putting him on a wing matchup.
Sean Miller 44:09
That is the second, you know, is that winning player a post up? More importantly, is he a really good offensive rebounder? I think that that was the big difference between Yukon two years ago. By the way, like me arriving at Xavier’s coincided with Yukon winning two national championships, you know, as like as my plane landed, they became the new Yukon. But two years ago, we were able to beat them twice. It’s all forgotten now. You almost don’t even remember it. But part of why we had a good team first, but I think the other part of it is when we were able to cross match, we would be able to get away with it because we would play one of their perimeter players as a non shooter. So you took somebody who physically wasn’t as big and put him in the lane and just said, you know what? If tonight he makes threes, we’re going to lose. But this is our best bet to have a bigger player on Tristan Newton and maybe have a smaller player on a guy is really good, but not a three point shooter. And just say, you know, let’s see if we can get away with this. That may have contributed to the win or wins 5 percent or 10 percent. But I do think it helped us. If you were playing against them this year, that was not in consideration because they had nobody on the court that you could play a smaller guy on and get away with it. Nobody.
Pat 45:31
So this question was kind of born out of like when you have a weaker defender and this thinking of ways, like how would you try to hide them? And so maybe just pulling out of this question, I mean, a cross-matching is a solution, but how you just think about, you know, let’s take like perimeter players, just think about working with weak perimeter defenders that you know are going to play and how you try to help them, whether it’s schematically or individually, just so they’re not completely giving up everything that they may give back on offense to your team.
Sean Miller 46:01
And you’re talking about when he’s more of a liability on defense. Yes, I probably over my time have gotten better at being more patient with that type of player, because, look, you know, we aspire to be good at both offense and defense. I think sometimes as a head coach, when you lean more towards one versus the other, you’re not as patient in the area you’re leaning towards, right? If I’m an offensive coach and it’s about score, score, score, you know, I’m not valuing, you know, the physical defense that maybe somebody who can’t make a shot gives me conversely, if I’m favoring more defense, which I would say over my time, I probably lean a little bit more towards defense, you’re not valuing this elite player’s ability to shoot the three and what he brings to the table. I coached a player at Arizona that I wish I would have been a little more patient with early in my career towards the end of his career. I was and I was Gabe York, but what I learned, especially in games, like sophomore year, maybe at the beginning of his junior year, he gave us an ingredient that was so different from the rest of our personnel that I believe he made us an elite team. He made us better because he could change the game with his shooting. He was highly, highly skilled. He wasn’t as big in his physical or maybe even his talented defensively as some of the guys that played more or started, but I think the blend of what he gave us made us a more difficult team to beat. It gave us a higher ceiling. And I think that’s the other thing you learn in recruiting and building your roster, having more of a blend, but knowing that when you have the blend, you’re more patient with those that can’t do certain things either offensively or defensively. I also don’t think you give him a free pass that player. Like it’s not that you can’t hold him accountable, but I think if you really understand his limitations and coach him to be the best he can be, and then also know that he gives us an upside on the other side of the ball that we just don’t have without him, the highest ceiling possible will accompany that patience with your team.
The older you get, the more you realize it, like the Miami Heat, I think they’re really good at that right there. Where, you know, when you think of Eric Spostra and Pat Riley and the heat culture, no one’s going to say that they’re soft or they don’t defend or they don’t have schemes defensively. Like they’re about it. They’re physical. They’re wired. But yet if you look at their team, they have a couple of guys, they’re playing and they’re utilizing and leveraging them on offense in a way that’s super creative. And yet you can’t tell me that they think that that same players, their answer on defense, you know, but I think the ingredients of what those players can give them offensively, they look at is giving their own team, the highest upside. And I think that’s something you learn over time as a coach.
Pat 48:48
With this defensive liability player and knowing though that what he can give you on offense and the example of Gabe York, how much then are you thinking about, hey, when he’s in the game, we can’t just simply let our offense flow versus we always got to be leveraging him. Maybe not, he needs always be shooting or scoring, but we have to make sure we’re using his skillset so we can get his advantage on offense versus, well, we’re just going to let it flow and, you know, it’ll work itself out.
Sean Miller 49:14
Great question. And the leverage is, I think, analytically more of the new way than it’s ever been before. So it’s not just to understand that the more he’s out there, he’s a weapon, he’s a threat, he gives you an ingredient that otherwise maybe you don’t have without him. But while he’s in having sets after timeouts, side out of bounds, underneath out of bounds, those special quick hitters that are just wired for that special skill, I think that’s how you can really bring out the best in what he doesn’t do for you defensively.
Dan 49:46
I were discussing this for a long time before we hopped on this morning with you is when you have someone that’s maybe a weaker defender, the philosophy of, well, that person’s not going to switch, or we want them to switch more stuff, or we’re going to hedge ball screams to help them. I know it varies player to player, but in general, when you have someone like that, are you trying to keep them out of help side or trying to not switch? All the things that might go into maximizing whatever defensive stuff they do have.
Sean Miller 50:12
Well, yeah, I mean, following your podcast, you know, the brilliance of these coaches, especially in Europe, the NBA, and I really think it’s now coming to college more where, you know, you just simply set a screen to make the other team switch. Several years ago, a perimeter on perimeter screen on the ball was just nonsense. We’re just going to switch and we’re going to be fine. You know, now the creative aspect of, well, you make them switch and then you punish the weak defender after the switch in these various ways. I think there’s more of that going on.
I think the one thing that we really try to do is what sometimes it’s just size difference is not allow them to do that and teach guards to hedge. So, you know, bigs always have been taught in the way we do it. The hedge, you know, you work the guard on the ball, make them use the screen, beat the screen, tough on the ball over the ball screen and under the hedge. Things like that. But now, you know, I think it’s equally important that your guards can hedge and not give up the matchup where, you know, they can stay on their own offensive matchup. It’s important. We do that now. And again, back to my earlier point, instead of us doing that two days before we play Villanova, we try to make it more a part of our system, whether it be in the summer or fall, so that we get to it earlier, we teach them earlier. And now when we’re three days before the game, it’s part of our system instead of introducing something that might be unique.
Dan 51:40
Coach, you’re off the start sub, sit hot seat. Thanks for solving offensive rebounding and cross matches, but that was a lot of fun. We got one final question before we close the show. Before we do, again, thank you so much for your time, your thoughts. This was really fun for us today.
Sean Miller 51:53
Yeah, same here. I mean, I’m not blowing smoke here. I listen to you guys all the time. I follow it.
I love a lot of your guests and some of the ideas that we have been able to get from the podcast and implement, or sometimes it’s not even implement them, but think differently about what we’re doing. It creates a mind of, no, no, no, what we’re doing is good for this reason. I don’t want to do it that way. But yeah, it’s been a lot of fun watching and listening to you guys.
Dan 52:18
Coach, our final question that we ask all the guests is what’s the best investment that you’ve made in your career as a coach?
Sean Miller 52:24
Best investment I’ve made is really marrying my wife. We went to high school and college together. It’s actually our anniversary here today, 31 years.
We have three sons. You know, when you’re on the journey and the path, there’s unexpected twists and turns. I know in every industry, but I think in particular, in the world of college basketball and just high level basketball in general, things happen. But to have somebody by your side that’s a great partner, friend, supportive, can be with you through the ups and downs of this crazy profession. You know, I would say that it’s the one thing that I know I’ve gotten right.
Dan 53:04
All right, Pat, a lot of fun. I kind of mentioned it at the top of the show, but it’s got to have been 10, 12 years ago now. I saw him speak at the clinic and he spoke on some of the stuff we discussed today. But I remember sitting there thinking, man, if I could ever just rifle off like four more questions afterwards and pick his brain on a couple of things, you know, that would be awesome. And here we are, 12 years later, dreams come true.
You spoke it into existence. All you have to do is just start a podcast. Yeah, yeah. Fun, detailed, interesting conversation today. Absolutely.
Pat 53:40
Absolutely. Like you said, I think the minute we signed off, we could have literally picked any topic and he’s going to have great thoughts, his knowledge and his experience, like nothing he hasn’t seen, nothing he can’t talk on for sure.
Dan 53:51
Let’s hop in our top three takeaways here. And so I think I’ll go ahead and hop into number one here. And well, the number one takeaway was basically that whole first bucket. I mean, there’s just tons of stuff in there. I think what I took away most was I loved the part of the conversation that was about that gray area of when you break the pressure, what you do next, how your team flows. And we talked a lot about all of that stuff. And when you’re going from breaking the pressure to then second side act or trying to get the ball moved, but he differentiated really well. Talked about, well, if you have an advantage, we don’t want to play against the clock ourselves. We don’t want to do that to ourselves. We want to take the right kind of shot for the right player. And he said, punish them for playing 94 feet. But then he also spoke really well about that gray area of then when you don’t quite have an advantage and it’s more five on five. And he kept using Dana Altman from Oregon, how they can slow you up and just make the game feel plain funny was a term he used a bunch. I really loved that term. And it’s true. Like any of us that ever played against teams that do that, it just feels funky. But then he spoke well about then how they just want to play. And I think he said, what is it? The what rule?
Dan 55:04
Don’t ask me what.
Pat 55:06
Yeah like the point he raised, you can’t have your team tough or difficult to play in three phases of the game within the possession of breaking the press, then maybe attacking the press and then, okay, nothing there now will come and resetting it. It’s just too hard to do consistently through a game.
And to your point, it’s about getting them in these concepts. And of course, I think probably a miss that we’ll get into talking about, of course, the shot selections. The guys know what is, I followed up on what is a purposeful drive, what are the shots they want, and using that what rule, if there’s a center in front of you in your guard, you don’t need to ask what, just be a basketball player. And so I really enjoyed his thoughts. I think it was the conversation we were after when we were putting together three podcasts, where we wanted to go. And he spoke really well on it and exactly what we were searching for. Just for sure, it’s interesting. And we got into it, his formations. And that was probably my other big takeaway when attacking the zones that are just trying to kill clock. It’s not necessarily about, okay, formations, breaking the trust was like that, what next mentality and like how he goes about teaching it and really being able to punish a zone, but then not get too wild, too out of control, or your guys are just seeing red all the time and just going, going, going.
Dan 56:21
And we’ve had a number of conversations on the podcast, thinking about Justin Potts, Montclair State a couple of years ago, who’s a really good press coach, division three team that gets up and pressures you. And he talked about like the philosophy on the other side of the ball, like that’s what they’re trying to do. They’re trying to make you feel funny all game and get out of your flow, your rhythm. And it’s like that battle between offense and defense of how you, on the offensive side, it can feel kind of helpless in those kinds of games as a coach when the team doesn’t let you just come down and run your stuff.
And they’re making you really have to play and think. And he talked about some drills. He mentioned the heat transition drill, which is a great one. I know we’ve used it quite a bit here to kind of help with that transition stuff and playing through those things.
Pat 57:03
I will say I just want to hit on it because I alluded to it earlier. I enjoyed the end of the first bucket when he talked about when attacking those zone presses that are just there to run clock and how then he’ll put a score down low and basically treat it to a zone concept that we’ve talked with some coaches, I think, especially Stan Van Gundy.
Basically against a zone, you can choose the matchup. So when he sees it’s kind of a kill the clock zone, he’s going to put a score down there and kind of try to get the big out on the score and look to attack from there. So I appreciate him making that distinction I really liked and then going through just how the formation changes, what he’s doing with keeping the big down there, trying to work with post-subscreens, but then going more two guard front and guy in the middle. So I like that too. I thought he spoke really well on it.
Dan 57:45
Yeah, let’s move on to point number two or takeaway number two. And for that, I will kick it back to you.
Pat 57:51
My second point was when we got into offensive rebounding, well, the offensive rebounding question, but we got into the transition defense conversation. As you touched on, I think, honestly, I don’t know if probably every coach we’ve had on, whether on the podcast or off air, we’ve kind of been picking their brains at how they’re approaching offensive rebounding, someone we’re thinking about a lot, but my takeaway then went into how he built his transition defense I wrote down the halfback pullback for the one and the twos and making that distinction, because he answered it before I could even hit the followup. Well, if you’re going to send two back, making sure you still get the high pickup point by the halfback pullback strategy there, but then I think it was your followup, actions that he’s worried about or that they’re really working on in a transition, whether it’s that drag screen or the delay, what’s giving them problems or what they’re saying probably more often than in the past, kind of that modern offense and how not only is it building the transition to get the five and five, but then also being prepared, okay, we’ve got five and five, but usually drag screens are coming or delays and what he’s thinking about, he talked about just that guard just getting over, whether it’s chasing over or chasing under, recognizing that most of the time they’re slipping that drag screen, so they’re not really setting a screen, don’t really put yourself into coverage unnecessarily. I thought that was a really interesting conversation.
Dan 59:09
Yeah, I will add to your point within all that, it was an interesting answer because he was saying you know within all this stuff, the most important thing for him is building transition defense and he kind of gave a little philosophy on the big games, the good teams break the game open with easy dunks or transition baskets and he always feels like he would rather protect against that so the game doesn’t get broken open against the good teams rather than spend too much time on how many how to set you know whatever it is trying to do offensive rebounding wise I thought that was an interesting distinction on that answer first and foremost and then as we got into the halfback fullback and then of course the drags and things like that that have become more and more popular in all areas of the game or teams getting to quick splits on the other side I mean offenses are so good now and obviously getting back is just the beginning of the battle
Pat 01:00:00
I like the comment he made on that, as compared to the past, it’s been less about trying to kick that fullback out of the rim as the five, you know, because it was, he’s saying less and less rim running and more of that five out. And so it’s more just a fullback naturally just kind of bounces himself out rather than working on the fives, keeping up chasing the rim or whatnot to bounce the fullback out. I thought was also a interesting comment.
Dan 01:00:22
Yeah, because he mentioned how good Gonzaga has been at having a hard rim running five with a trail four or big and how hard that can be when they do it well. When you’re getting back to have someone that’s coming to the rim and if you don’t bounce them out quick enough, there’s a mismatch or they flow that second side so quickly, then you’re chasing the rest of the possession. So, yes, good distinction there.
Pat 01:00:42
Yeah. All right, Dan, I’ll throw it back to you for the third takeaway and to bring us home here.
Dan 01:00:47
Yeah, this start subset, the other one, the purposeful cross matching consideration. Say that three times fast. You and I probably discussed this question more than any we’ve done so far this year, just trying to figure out how to ask it. When what we were talking about. Yeah, exactly. You and I had a fun conversation before the podcast just talking about this whole thing and how to kind of present it to Coach Miller. And I think that it led to a really cool conversation. What you and I were after was when you have either a really good defender or we were thinking about just having weaker defenders and what you’re doing with them within your scheme and how you either hide them or whatnot. And so I loved all of it, honestly. And then there was a nugget at the end where we talked about teaching guards to hedge, I thought was a good point too. Something that we were asking about what to do with the weaker defenders and with the switch or don’t switch if you don’t want them to help side all that. And so I think he got to that point with teaching guards to hedge. And he mentioned like Miami Heat doing some cool stuff with those defenders.
Pat 01:01:49
Yeah, I enjoyed kind of the broader conversation we had with weaker defenders. It started with if you have your stronger defender on the guard, your weaker defender on a wing first, how that may affect then your transition defense with the rules of your one and two are always back, but now your better wing defender is always on the one, all these kinds of domino ripple effects. You got to think about. And then when we got into the example of Gabe York and how he thought about using him and it coincided with the Miami heat conversation and the considerations on protecting him defensively, you know, holding him accountable, I thought was a really good point that you don’t just turn a complete blind eye, but also kind of knowing what he’s giving you rather than just focusing on what he’s not giving you and then how the conversation too of making sure that you’re leveraging him on offense, the reap, the benefit of this player. And I thought he did a great job in using like sideline baseline, ATO should kind of be touching him, using him rather than just hoping, you know, it’s his day to day or the flow of the offense comes through him. Cause then I think that’s going to lead to days of frustration for the player and for you, like coach Miller said of your defensive coach, but you’re not really doing your part to help utilize him on offense and then only just kind of getting frustrated with his defense. I thought he spoke really well on and raised some really key considerations and how to weaponize these guys and not just be frustrated by them at times.
Dan 01:03:08
Absolutely. Good thing we didn’t record our pre-podcast conversation on this complete train wreck. What are these guys talking about? 20 minutes. And then we still got down to a completely mouthful of a question of purposeful cross-match consideration. So, good. Hey, as we close here, any misses from RN, not Coach Miller, of course, but anything we could have gone deeper on in the show.
Pat 01:03:33
You know, it’s something we also kind of toyed around with, or not toyed around, but, you know, when we were just in the big bucket throwing around some ideas, you know, and we touch briefly on it, but just modern concepts of attacking a zone, maybe kind of getting more in detail of what concepts specifically he likes to use, we talked about the importance of concepts throughout the gray areas and whether they’re man zone after you break it. Yeah. I think zone offense is a conversation we haven’t had in a little bit. And I wish I had followed up on just kind of what the concepts they like to use when attacking a zone.
Dan 01:04:05
For sure. I think you and I both talked about that. And yeah, it would have definitely been interesting.
I’ll just add, going back for my miss was in that purposeful cross matching considerations conversation, depending on who your weaker defenders are, from your one to your five, how that connects to what you’re doing as a scheme. If your five is a weaker defender, how different that is, what you’re going to do on ball screens or switching, not switching post catches versus if it’s your point or if it’s a wing. That all the things in between, I think would have been kind of interesting just to explore a little bit more of, okay, what do you do if your five now is maybe your weaker defender and how you’re trying to protect them in ball screens and post ups. And I think we can imagine different things you do, but that was something I probably could have followed up or spent more time on.
Pat 01:04:54
Yeah. Maybe just kind of a bounce off of that. We also were playing around with the idea of four man screening actions and how to defend that and kind of the same, you know, how does it change with what bigger fours and these on-ball screening actions, handoffs compared to your five, I guess would say is also another miss that we just chose not to go in this direction in the podcast. Yeah. But I think it’s also something I’m pretty curious about as well. What changes with whether it’s four or five men in a drag screen or a handoff.
Dan 01:05:20
Save that one for another guest. Yeah. Well, once again, we thank Coach Miller for coming on and sharing all his thoughts today. Thank you everybody for listening and we’ll see you next time.