We sat down with Indiana Pacers Assistant Coach, Jenny Boucek! In this terrific re-play episode from 2021 we dive into PNR cutting concepts, late-game analytics, and discuss assessing player value, defending the Short Roll, and loyalty in coaching during the alway fun “Start, Sub, or Sit?!”
Transcript
Jenny Boucek 00:00
The tricky part about the analytics now, and this is something I’m open-minded about it, but I’m witnessing as well, is that things that are so very black and white numerically can take a toll on the soul of a player or a team. And so you have to find some element of humanness to all of this because what might be clearly right in the numbers can mess with the psyche of a player or a team.
Dan 02:00
And now, please enjoy our conversation with Coach Jenny Busek. We’d love to pick your brain on some things for a bit here, and the first one is off-ball cutting, specifically in a pick and roll. And what you’re seeing at the NBA level of the use of different types of off-ball cuts…
Jenny Boucek 02:26
Yeah. I mean this, you know, the thing I love about basketball and in particular about the WNBA and the NBA is that this thing is always evolving. I mean, it is always changing. If you don’t keep up, you’re going to get left behind as a coach and as a teacher. And you’ve always got to have an open mind as to maybe what was taught or what was the common belief system is no longer best or right or relevant. So that is a topic that is constantly changing.
And I think some of it depends on your roster. I think some of it depends on the defenses that you see. For example, when you have a six, eight point guard with the vision that Luca Doncic has, you don’t need to do as much cutting. He’s able to make passes to any spot on the floor, even against the trap, even against the big trap. So he’s caused me to rethink some of my cutting principles and specifically pick and roll because he’s really just an exception, you know? And so we’ve got to work with that. We’ve got to work with Luca. And if we’ve got good shooters on the floor with him, regardless of how they play him, he’s going to find somebody on time on target for a good catch and shoot three, which is, you know, what everybody’s looking for nowadays.
But I think if we take like exceptions out of the mix, like a Luca that six, eight can see over traps and see over bigs and see over switches, I do think just in general, like the best way I would describe the value of off-ball cutting, if I were just to like really, really sum it down, is when you’ve created an advantage, a numbers advantage offensively. And now you have a numbers advantage on the weak side. You should be thinking always, or usually you’re looking for a cut so that you take away the ability of one defender to guard two or two defenders to guard three. So this could be in a drive situation. You know, it’s a common cut in the NBA, in the WNBA, somebody drives baseline, they beat their man, draw a second defender from the baseline, and you see the slot cut, you know, from the weak side, the break on the three-point line. That cut is happening and it’s effective because the ball hammers has drawn a second defender, and now there’s one guy guarding two on the backside.
And if you just space, if it’s a good defender with some anticipation, he might be able to get to the first pass and then they rotate to the second one and you lose your advantage. A good defensive team. If you cut that rotation, they’re screwed basically. Right. Okay. In a two-man game, so now you have a side pick going on. And the goal in a two-man game is to draw a third defender. That’s the goal. A goal in a one-on-one offensive players to guard is to draw a second defender. Goal in a two-man game is to draw a third defender. Once that third defender is drawn, that happens by the ball handler, engaging the second defender, which is the screener. Now the roller of the popper engages a third defender. So now the two-man game has engaged three defenders. Now there’s an advantage three on two, two on one, somewhere else on the floor. That’s another great time to cut. So let’s say it’s a high pick and you’ve got a Chris Stops Porzingis on your team, who shoots 40 something percent from three. Lucas handled the ball. He draws two. Normally he can get by him or find the three-point shooter in the weak side corner, whoever he wants. But let’s just say it’s Jalen Brunson. He can’t quite see everything. He draws two. Porzingis pops back and a third defender so much as stunts towards him. The next man over needs to cut to create an open shot. It’s going to be either the rim or a three. That makes sense. That’s my basic summation teaching of basic cutting principles off the ball, in particular with the two-man game.
Pat 06:35
On that thread, when you have a non-shooter out there, are you trying to put him in spots around the pick and roll where he can make these cuts? Or is it always, I know the corners are valuable. Is it, hey, if you’re a non-shooter, try to lift to the wings if you can fill someone else in that corner. How do you approach moving a non-shooter around the pick and roll to be a threat?
Jenny Boucek 06:57
Yeah. You know, if you’re a set situation where you can put your men exactly where you want them, then yeah, you would put your cutting guy in certain spots. You know, like you said, if we were running a pick and pop, then we probably have him in the slot spot. So he’s cutting to the rim and we put them in a dilemma for the corner three-point shooter.
The game has gone so far away from sets, as you guys know, and much more into the flow, into the principles of play, you know, read and react. And so because of that, I think your principles of cutting become more valuable just as part of your principles of play. You’re not always going to be able to in that scenario of random play or diversity, you know, that most of us are seeking because it’s unscoutable and it’s playoff basketball. You know, now you’re looking at these principles of play of, okay, we’ve got two men on the weak side. We get them into rotations. However, there’s one defender guarding two, you know, now you have to find your language of whether you’re going to cut from a spot or are you going to be able to find some language as a leader to cut certain men and not offend them?
Dan 08:13
Okay, yeah.
Jenny Boucek 08:14
Okay. Maybe it depends on the man or the woman. Maybe it’s something you just stay away from and you go with spot, you know, spot on the floor. This is all part of coaching is trying to manage all of these things because it’s not just robots. It’s human beings with thoughts and feelings and emotions and reactions. And sometimes you got to weigh the cost benefit of the conversations and the principles that you put in place.
Dan 08:41
Coach, on that same idea about, is it a spot? Is it the person who’s cutting or whatnot? How much of the decision on the cutting action is up to, let’s go back to Luca. How much of it is a conversation with him saying, what do you prefer in this pick and roll? Do you want guys cutting or is that too much action for you? You’d rather just find them weak side. What’s the balance of talking to a great player like him, as opposed to someone else who I know he’s an outlier, but those conversations.
Jenny Boucek 09:14
He’s an outlier, but with Luca, my opinion is you talk to him as much as possible. He’s a savant and you know, we’re working with his genius and then it might turn into a dialogue of what are you seeing? What’s your preference? Here’s what we’re seeing and he’s going to give you great insight. Maybe things you’ve never even thought of. Maybe things that Rick’s never even thought of, you know, as one of the best coaches that ever played the game. He’s that unique, honestly, like his understanding of the game and the way that he controls it. So, you know, I definitely think that he’s an outlier in some of those ways, but we know we have gone against certain teams where the degree of loading that they’re doing to him in either isolation or two man game, he’s not going to get in there. Like they are committed and even some of those guys, like if we playing random enough, he’s still going to get in there. So he, I’m just talking over myself, but like in certain situations, if they’re totally set, they’re totally loading. Now we have to start thinking about how we’re going to burn them for that severe loading and the extreme gravity that he has, whether it be by a cut or something that we’ve implemented a little bit more this year to keep the lane open for him. Because that’s what he likes is flaring and using some more zone offensive principles on the weak side, when you have numbers to still sustain space, but to burn preloading, cleansing strong, you know, some of the things that great players see.
Dan 10:44
Coach, can we drill down on that last thing you just said, a little bit zone actions on the backside, can you explain a little bit more of what you mean by that?
Jenny Boucek 10:51
Well, like one example, you know, against the zone, you know, that if you’ve got numbers on the backside, one of the great things to do is to flare that, you know, is to set a flare screen and look for a skip. It’s another way to take advantage of numbers. You got one guy guarding two, maybe one guy is not as good as shooter. He flares for the shooter or he pins in on the shooter. So it’s just a way to counter whether it be a number advantage or just a big time weak side load, which you see a lot in zone. So that’s one example of just a zone principle. The other one that you see a lot in zone when you have a number advantage is the flash, you know, flashing into certain spots and that is a type of cut, you know, so it kind of goes back to the cutting, but it’s a, it’s more of a zone cut, but looking for flash opportunities against the loading, you know, is another, I would say zone principle.
Pat 11:43
In regards to maybe sending a third man into that pick and roll in terms of the Spanish pick and roll or shallow cutting. How do you kind of view that and do you find value in that rather than just let’s space and let’s keep it a two-man game?
Jenny Boucek 11:58
Yeah, again, every team’s different. When I was coaching the Seattle Storm, we were setting records offensively. That team has won two championships with our offensive system that we put in.
Several years ago, a lot of it came from Rick Carlisle. Sue Bird preferred cutting, but she didn’t have the size. And at the end of her career, she didn’t have quite the quickness either. So she wanted available people. And she wasn’t able to make some of the passes that Luca’s making. So Luca prefers space. Sue Bird, who’s maybe the best point guard ever on the female side, preferred cutting because she liked availability and she liked movement. And she didn’t have the strength and the quickness that Luca had at that stage of her career. So see, for a player like Sue Bird, I think that wouldn’t have been as good because congestion was not her thing.
She wanted space and then to see the routes developing, like a quarterback. Luca loves what we call the stack action in the NBA. I mean, he loves it because what it does, when you bring a third defender in there for him with his vision and IQ, it adds more confusion for the defense. He’s able to see it all in advance, but it adds more confusion. And having a guard in there seems to add more confusion. It’s almost like in the NBA, if you guys you probably already noticed in this, but you’ll notice it now that I tell you this, you’re seeing a trend of many more guard to guard screens.
Dan 13:30
Yeah.
Jenny Boucek 13:30
Then the bigs setting screens on the ball, way more. It’s like every team is starting to do that more. There’s a different element of confusion with that nowadays.
And so you get a little bit of both of that in the stack, but you’re also going to see we’re running guards into a lot of screens for Luca, just straight up in the double drag action. We’re involving the guard a lot. So that’s just an element of confusion that we like here with Luca and he has the ability to make that read. So he likes that.
Pat 14:01
Coach, following up on that stack action, we’ve talked a lot about in the past about that stack screener and kind of his reads and when to release, but I’m curious, what are you telling, I mean, maybe not so much with Luca, but what are you telling the guard and how he navigates the stack screen and the pick and roll with just the patience and how to let it develop and like the reads off of it?
Jenny Boucek 14:22
The guard screening or the guard handle?
Pat 14:23
The guard coming off the pick and roll. Yeah.
Jenny Boucek 14:25
Almost every NBA team is guarding that one of two ways and mostly one way, which is they’re dropping the big, like literally to the charge circle and switching the guards. The only other thing we see a little bit is switching all of it, just switch, switch, switch. But by far the most common is to drop the big to the rim and switch guard to guard. So it’s not really any more.
I don’t think you’ll see hardly ever that guard ever setting screen. It’s always a slip out one direction or the other. And the randomness of which direction they slip out is probably the trickiest part of the read. Setting the big screen flat, where a Luca can come off either way and the guard can slip out either way adds a lot of randomness, just that right there. Because depending on which way he goes, depending on which way the screening guard slips out, it turns into a one man eye on the backside tagging or two and the more random and unpredictable you can be offensively nowadays, the better.
Dan 15:31
I want to go back to the you mentioned about the guard-to-guard screen being more prevalent going forward in the NBA Why do you think that is is it just because it’s a way to confuse and kind of pierce the defense easier than you know defenses are so used to drop coverage or ice with the bigs and this is a little different or is it a Match-up game more and that’s what they’re looking for
Jenny Boucek 15:54
It’s both you’re actually nailing it. I think with your your assessment of that. I think it’s a little bit of both I think you know pick and roll has been around so long in the nba And traditionally with big setting you know Coaches have coached it a long time players have played it a long time. At least the guys have been in the pros And so, you know They’ve gotten pretty good at the drop coverage or switch or whatever their dominant base scheme is when a big is involved And so while we still use that a lot The guard to guard seems to be something that just hasn’t been as worked on lately It’s not as comfortable for guards as it is post players Whether to switch it or not You know is not as clear cut especially when it’s done in random play And then as you mentioned some of it is simply When you have a savant like luka in the pick and roll Or damion lillard or james harden, you know, you’re hunting mismatches And you don’t care who it is. You don’t care a position. It is completely positionless You’re hunting mismatches and you’re trying to get in spaceThis is a conversation that I think every coaching staff is having every season and throughout the season is the clutch play. It’s no secret we struggled with it last year. We’ve made great improvements this year. Some of that, yeah, we’ve worked on some stuff. We focus on some things. We put more attention into it, but to be honest, some of it is just your team growing up. Every young team that I’ve had is part of the learning curve. The first step is getting into close games, being good enough to be involved in those close games. Then the next step is how do you win them? It’s way harder than people realize.
It’s an evolution. We’ve had a lot of these conversations, ironically, just about philosophy and things like that. Especially when you are, which most NBA teams are, a team that is operating more out of a flow type of offense with less sets, more random, more people touching the ball, less predictability. That’s what’s going to get you far in the playoffs. But when it comes to clutch time, now, do you really now still want as many people handling the ball and making decisions? If the answer to that is no, how do you shift gears without losing the identity of your team and what has gotten you to that point? That’s the dance.
That’s the dance, is being able to play and change gears and not tighten up your team, stagnate your team, basically ice your team. So there’s that. There is when you have a great player, which every NBA team pretty much does, finding that balance of everybody knows they’re going to have the ball. and you want them to have a ball, but keeping your other guys confident and ready because a lot of times they’re gonna end up with shot. Again, there’s a science to this game. There’s the analytic side of this game which is taking over the NBA, but there always will be an art to this. And because you’re dealing with human beings, it’s never the same. It’s a feel. It’s always evolving and something that’s continually talked about, but it’s a tricky balance in all these areas.
And then all of a sudden your team just kind of gets over the hump. They feel it and it’s like there’s a revelation. I mean, you’re just trying to help them speed up that process as much as you possibly can with some of those things that you’re referring to, but eventually they just get it. Like they’re just comfortable in late game situations.
Pat 21:13
Speaking of kind of the analytics, how do you in crunch time approach shot selection? Are there shots that, you know, hey, it’s crunch time, maybe let’s throw it in the post and or a mid-range shot.
Is the type of shots that you look for changing in the last couple minutes compared to in the first 45 when, you know, I think everyone’s hunting threes and rim attacks?
Jenny Boucek 21:35
Yeah, absolutely. Like this is me speaking. This is not the Dallas Mavericks speaking, but I think when you get under, you know, when you get under a certain amount of time, basically one possession for sure. Obviously, if you don’t need a three, the analytics go out the window in terms of what a good shot is and what a bad shot is. Like it’s no longer about points per possession.
The mid range game is now very much in play and the post up is very much in play. That’s all out the window when you’re dealing with one possession. I think as you get into crunch time, it’s so hard to score, you know, because you are playing less random, you’re highly scouted, the game is slowed down. You got to take a good shot when you get it, even if points per possession, it’s not the most popular trendy wouldn’t win you a hundred possession game.
Pat 22:20
With a player like Luca, are there discussions like let’s just isolate Luca or let’s send him in a pick and roll or maybe it’s let’s have him give the ball up and move him so the defense you know can’t just load up like you say and then get the ball to him? I guess in these late situations you know are you finding one is better than the other or is it like if we just give him the ball and keep it simple?
Jenny Boucek 22:43
Yeah, I can’t divulge our conversation on this specifically, but again, you guys are so insightful. It’s one of the reasons I respect what you do so much because you can tell you studied this.
You’re spot on, Patrick, in your analysis. And those are the conversations that we have. And honestly, we have to sometimes just try certain things and see what’s going to be best for our team. And we’ve been in the process of doing that the last year and a half. Those are the things that we’ve been talking about exactly.
Dan 23:16
Well, Coach, we’d like to transfer now to an always fun segment we call Start, Sub, or Sit. So what we’ll do is we’ll give you three basketball, well, almost all of these are basketball topics. And we’ll ask you to start one, to sub one, and then to sit one, and then we can have a little discussion.
Yeah, it’s all yours.
Pat 23:41
Okay, coach. My start, sub, or sit. You’re going to be coaching the defense in these situations. So types of rules, I guess that would make it the most difficult for you to defend. A short roll, a rim roll, or a pick and pop by the screener.
Jenny Boucek 24:00
Depends on the player.
Pat 24:01
Okay, yeah, if you have it’s you’ll get short rolling, it’s regal bear rim rolling and porzingus pick and popping. What’s kind of scaring you the most?
Jenny Boucek 24:10
Oh, it would be my starter would be yokach on the short roll. My son would be, that’s a good question. I’d probably say go bare on the rim, but that’s tight. Like my subs would be like, I don’t know, game to game. I might play this guy or might play that guy. The reason why I say that is because of the switching that most teams can do now.
Like depending on your personnel, like that can negate the three pretty easily. But the drop can negate no bear. So it just kind of depends. But by far the short roll to me is the favorite. If you’ve got to play making big, because now he can get to the rim, he can create threes, I mean, you, the defense is, is screwed if you have a good short roller and against any defense, so that would be by far my, my starter.
Pat 25:01
What are some of the ways that you would defend the short roll, whether trying to take it away or how do you try to rotate onto the short roll?
Jenny Boucek 25:09
Ideally, you don’t want to rotate. Ideally, like all the best defensive teams somehow guard two with two in the pick and roll. Anytime you have to bring a third defender in with the three-point shooting that’s in existence nowadays, you’re in a real dilemma. Ideally, you try to figure out some way to guard two with two. You can do that a lot of different ways.
Pat 25:37
Sure.
Jenny Boucek 25:38
some of that depends on your personnel, but it depends on who the short roller is. But the short roll is really like, that’s really where it’s at. And that’s why you guys mentioned early in the call, we didn’t really get to it, but you calling it the reverse pick and rolls. Yes. Yeah. Some people call it the step ups or the flat screens or the low side screens. Again, that’s where it’s at nowadays, because pretty much whatever defense you use, that player screening like that is going to gain an advantage to either pop or get into the short roll. And it’s one of the best ways to negate switching, which we see so much of, but it also negates if any teams go under, it’s a lot harder to go under that screen. It gives ball handler the opportunity to go either way. You know, you can easily pop off of that. So to me, setting those screens flat is what you should be doing. When you have a player that can roll or pop operate in the short roll, man, you’re in business offensively.
Pat 26:39
I’m curious, I mean, I mean, it’s been around, but I’ve been starting to notice too. And it makes me think, where you kind of like, you hedge out or maybe blitz with the big man and the guard kind of goes under that screen. Yeah, to kind of like, he buffers that short roll. And I mean, obviously, you want to do it whether it’s a with a shooter, but if it’s like an attacking guard, you know, is that a way that teams maybe look to handle it two on two and kind of get pressure on the ball and take away that short roll?
Jenny Boucek 27:04
Yeah, no, it’s good that, I mean, we’re honestly like, at least I’m thinking now, like, what’s the next pick and roll defense going to be? You know, what are we going to either cycle back to or what are people going to come up with the hedging? The problem with, with the show or the hedge, regardless of whether you go under the ball handler or the screen is if you move the ball out of that, like either advanced pass or ahead or behind the roller is going to gain an advantage and, you know, what you teach is to leave early when there’s a show or a hedge. And so you’re going to end up involving a third defender again, that way. The rollers going to get to the rim. They’re going to slip out. They’re going to get into the lane. You’re now talking about a third defender coming in when you show. You know, and the other thing that you’re seeing so much of now as a trend, just speaking about picking an old defense, the drop was so popular for so long, why? Because every analytics person sells you on the fact that you want to give up twos off the dribble, like defensively, that’s the goal twos off the dribble, twos off the dribble, twos off the dribble. So now what have these players done? They’re always ahead of us. It’s like, you know, the criminals are always ahead of the police. These guys now come off, they set the screens higher, like six feet behind the three point line or more. And these guys, like Damien Lillard, those little Charlotte guys, snipers, they come off and they’re getting threes against the drop. It’s not a two anymore. They’re getting threes against the drop because they can shoot in that little wind, that little pocket right there. So, you know, we, we are like, what’s next? What’s next defensively? How do we keep up with these offenses, you know, geniuses?
Pat 28:48
You say what’s next and what about the next defense that we’re seeing in Europe? I know it’s been the NBA will help from the nail but kind of committing the second defender the big stays and the nail help comes over and he’s providing the support.
Jenny Boucek 29:03
That’s a good one. You are seeing that more. And here’s why the above the break three is usually a lot lower than the corner three. So now you’re picking your poison. If you can’t force the team into the mid range for whatever reasons, now you’re thinking, okay, we got to take away rim and corner trees. Now you’re picking your poison. Maybe you’re choosing to give up more of those one pass above the breakthroughs, which is what you’re going to get. If you’re helping a lot, you know, at the nail, and maybe that’s the poison that you pick because nowadays defensively, that’s pretty much what you’re doing is you’re picking, you’re picking your poison. Yeah. There’s some interesting ways I’ve seen, cause I love European basketball too. It’s one of the reasons I like y’all stuff so much because we, you know, the women’s game is very European. All our players play in Europe. And so like every year when I was in the WNBA coaching, like all 20 years, I spent a part of the off season over in another country with some of my players. And so I’m very familiar with the European style and I love it. I just love the stuff that they do over there. And I’m always trying to learn stuff from them and keep up with what they’re doing. And I’ve coached a lot of international players in the WNBA and now NBA. But you know, one of the things I think that’s interesting, you’ll see some over there and we played with it a little bit in Seattle is if you do come in on a hard stunt anywhere and it is no longer possible for that to be like an early stunt and recover because you’ve had to come in either later so far, so deep, you know what I’m saying? Yep. Or you’re relying on that more than, you know, how are you going to rotate out of that in a way that keeps you as solid as possible and keeps you out of the scramble? Like you don’t defensively want to get into a scramble situation if at all possible. And so is there a way we play with it some to stunt and find a rotation that’s like maybe one man or woman instead of putting you into a whole full rotation or scramble. So that was something we were thinking about a lot in Seattle, just the defense that we worked with there. And we found some interesting situations to use just basically like we called it a go switch where we would stunt hard and go with one person without getting into a full rotation. I’ve heard there’s some NBA teams that have been playing with it a little bit, like something similar.
Dan 31:27
Sounds like the peel switch.
Jenny Boucek 31:29
What’s a peel switch?
Dan 31:30
I think it’s similar to what you’re talking about where, so we’ll void who we had on. He talks about once someone has beat off the dribble, whoever was guarding the ball no longer tries to recover back, but will peel back behind and switch off. And so it’s a one-way switch.
Jenny Boucek 31:45
That’s it. So that’s it. We found in Seattle, there were some consistent places on the floor where we could use that concept. Like I said, we called it the go switch because it was real clean for them to say that, like go, you know, like, and not lose the moment there. But yeah, I think we’re saying the exact same thing. Like one common place that you do see it sometimes already is, well, you don’t see it so much anymore because no one’s posting out. But picture, like when we did post players up, there’s somebody on the ball side block and somebody on the ball side with the ball on the wing and they drive baseline and the post player slides up the lane to the elbow. And the post player would take the baseline driver who’s beat and the man guarding the baseline driver would peel off and guard that elbow shot there. Instead of having to get in a full rotation, like that would be an example of what I think you’re calling a peel switch. And we call the go switch, but there were some other places on the floor where we found it to be pretty useful. So I don’t know. Maybe that is part of the future. I don’t know.
Dan 32:50
Okay, start, sub, or sit. These are different analytical stats that are most important to you. So start, sub, or sit, player efficiency rating, adjusted plus minus, or points per possession, PPP.
Jenny Boucek 33:06
for an individual player.
Dan 33:08
Individual player, yes.
Jenny Boucek 33:10
I’d probably say adjusted plus minus is my starter, player efficiency is my sub, and then points per possession would be, he would be sitting. But you know, this is always, this is a, this is a tricky part to me of, of the analytics is when you’re trying to assess the player’s value to a team. This one’s tricky for me as a coach, just in general. This is not such a linear sport like baseball. And I know we, we’re trying to make it as much so, especially with personnel decisions. And I get that, I get that, but after 20 something years of making a lot of decisions in terms of roster, I’ve been in a lot of positions like in WNBA, we do the draft. We don’t have a staff that analyzes the draft. We don’t have an international scout. We are the ones doing free agency trades and the draft. And over the years, you know, we incorporate a lot of analytics into that. And obviously in the NBA, it’s loaded with the analytics. My best decisions by far have come without it.
And so that’s maybe just my experience. And I’m not trying to negate it when it comes to like players value, but the best scouts in my opinion, and when I’ve gotten it right, I’ve gotten it wrong a lot, but is when I’m able to assess a player that has the it factor, give it an example that, you know, right now, it’s very relevant to our team, Jalen Branson, and I don’t know where his numbers were on all this stuff, honestly, but he wins. He’s a winner. He may not have the longest arms of the greatest vertical, or even the greatest shooting percentage at certain times of his career and stuff like that. But I don’t know where he is on those three stats that we just talked about. But the kid now man always wins and he always rises in the clutch. And now he’s, as he’s adjusting to the NBA, you’re seeing what a valuable clutch player he is in the NBA. Is he the most talented guy on the floor? No, but he has this it factor. And I’ve had that experience in the WNBA as well with players that I’m sure wouldn’t have graded out all that well, but they were such elite teammates and warriors and soldiers and keeping the locker room, right? They just have this it factor that I just don’t feel like you can put a number on that is always going to be a catalyst to your team winning. And a player like that makes a Sue Bird better. A player like that makes a Sue Bird more of a champion. And Sue’s going to get all the glory, but a Tanisha Wright, who you won’t even know, was a player that was really like the one that was the catalyst to a lot of those championships. And that championship culture that helped her have the numbers, helped Sue have the numbers that she has, if I’m making sense. So yeah, absolutely. It’s, you know, I’m, I’m partial to the intangibles is what I’m saying. I’m partial intangibles. It’s hard. It’s hard for me to accept that it’s just totally measurable in itself in an isolated equation. So yeah, let me hear that at some point and I’ll factor it in. But let me watch without that for a long period of time and get a feel for this player.
Dan 36:27
Coach, if I were to ask you those same stats and you ask me the difference, is it a player or team? Does that change your opinion all on the use of those stats if you’re, say, looking at it more from an overall team perspective rather than an individual player perspective?
Jenny Boucek 36:42
Probably not so much. I mean, again, I think the tricky part about the analytics now, and this is something I’m open-minded about it, but I’m witnessing as well, is that things that are so very black and white numerically can take a toll on the soul of a player or a team.
And so you have to find some element of humanness to all of this. Because what might be clearly right in the numbers can mess with the psyche of a player or a team. And so that’s where I think these coaches, these head coaches in the NBA that are really going to separate themselves are going to be the ones that are able to assimilate the information and the data and the numbers while not compromising the soul of an athlete or a team. Because at the end of the day, they’re human.
Jenny Boucek 39:07
Hmm, I’d say probably between I mean those wouldn’t even be my top three to be honest with you. Those are my subs
Dan 39:16
Okay, I like this
Jenny Boucek 39:17
So all three of those would be subs and I think my starter would be emotional IQ
Pat 39:25
OK.
Jenny Boucek 39:26
I think, you know, Ron Rothstein told me 20 years ago that I could teach him what basketball, what he did. He was like my main teacher. I could teach you basketball. I can’t teach you loyalty. I can’t teach you character. I can’t teach you, you know, team, being a good teammate. And those are the things that will get you fired. It won’t be basketball. And that’s kind of like what I learned being a part of the Miami Heat, you know, while they have a ton of talented guys on their staff, you know, they grow their talent and they reward loyalty and some of the things, the intangibles, character things that you can’t teach, work ethic, loyalty, those things. Those things they reward because they know they can teach you basketball. There’s a lot of people who know basketball. Doesn’t mean they’re going to be a good leader. Doesn’t mean they’re going to be a good teammate on the staff. It doesn’t mean they’re going to be a good soldier for you as a head coach. And those are the things that really to me lead to championship cultures and sustaining championship contention. You know, you can maybe with talent win a championship on a one off, but to have a championship culture that is sustainable over time, that’s about the people. That’s about the people that are involved. And so that would be, that would be my starter.
Pat 40:46
That was great. It’s a great answer and a new first sitting, sitting all three.
Dan 40:51
You’re like the coach that the starters are playing really bad the first minute of the game and you sub them all out. That was great. Coach, you’re off the start, sub, sit, hot seat. So thank you for that. That was a lot of fun. One more question for you as we wrap this up. And before we do, thank you very much for your time tonight. Pat and I really enjoyed this. And so thank you for being so open. And I know you have a short window of free time and to nerd out with us. We really appreciate it.
Jenny Boucek 41:21
Now, like I said, I really appreciate you guys and what you’re doing, and so I’m happy to give back in any way that I can, because you guys have already given so much to me and continue to do that. So I’m always here for you.
Dan 41:34
Thank you, Coach. We’ll get you out of here on this. Interested to hear what’s one of the best investments that you’ve made in your coaching career?
Jenny Boucek 41:44
Relationships without a doubt, it’s not even close. I know more than I know anything else that we all will be forgotten. I mean, you talk to players nowadays, you can name the greatest coaches, you know, they don’t know. You can ask them who won a championship in 2000. They don’t know.
They don’t care. You can ask most people in the general public who won the NBA or WNBA championship in 2015. They don’t know. So winning, while it feels so important in this profession, you know, you lose your job over it, it’s not what’s going to remain at the end of it all. What will remain at the end of it all, and I tell my athletes this all the time, especially when I’m in the leadership position in terms of being a head coach, what will remain at the end of this will be the people that you become, the lives that you’ve impacted and the relationships that you build. And when it’s all said and done, that’s going to be the stuff that matters to you. And that’s going to be the stuff that remains. It’s not mutually exclusive, but don’t let your pursuit of the world’s definition of success compromise these other things because those things aren’t going to be around. These things are what’s going to matter and be sustainable. So invest in those things, who you are, who you’re becoming, who you’re influencing, how you’re giving back, how you’re using this platform to give back and make the world a better place. And what are the relationships that you’ve built? And I am very blessed to say that my relationship portfolio through this game is rich. If I learn to coach another day in my life, I’m rich and I’m successful.
Pat 43:35
Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Please make sure to visit Slappinglass.com for more information on the free newsletter Slapping Glass Plus and much more. Have a great week coaching and we’ll see you next time on Slapping Glass.
Dan 43:57
Oh, do we have a name yet for this thing? Have like, Slap and Backboard. Slap and Glass. Slap and Glass. That’s kind of funny. I like that. Those are all Slap and Glass.