UC Davis Head Coach Jim Les joins the podcast to discuss the daily habits behind elite performance, building trust before asking for hard truth, and creating a team environment where productive conflict can be handled quickly. Coach Les explains why urgency starts with what a staff is willing to tolerate, how written player goals can sharpen accountability, and why “the game knows” has become a central teaching idea in his program.
On the tactical side, he breaks down UC Davis’s use of Princeton and chin action, the value of a dynamic catch before the pick and roll, teaching split cuts through clear order of operations, and using multiple offensive modes during a game. The conversation closes with ball-screen coverage complexity, deciding whether to fix or cover a team weakness, and the coaching investment that has kept him learning for more than two decades.
Transcript
Dan Krikorian 02:51
Coach, we are excited to dive in today on a bunch of stuff, but where we wanted to start was you’ve had a great head coaching, assistant coaching career, playing career, and you’ve just seen great players, great teams at all different levels, and we wanted to start there with what the top, top percentile of teams and players when you’ve been around them or coached them, what it is that you see that they seek, that they need, that they want, that pushes them and ultimately gets them to that next level?
Jim Les 03:22
You know, I, I have been blessed to be around excellence, and I tell this to our guys. We’re a top 10 public institution. There’s excellence all over this campus with Nobel Prize winners, and people have written books, and they’re elite in their field and tap into that knowledge. And I tried as well as I could to tap into the knowledge of the people that I got to be around. Sometimes I’m disappointed, I think I should have gone further, but if I were to characterize it, the elites, the people who were special, the, the first thing, the trait they had is time. They had an urgency about them. And we all make mistakes where we think we have time. You know, a freshman thinks, “Hey, I’m only a freshman.” And we know how quickly that time goes by. Or right now we’re in our summer workouts. It’s August. Well, what’s the urgency to close out correctly, or make sure I don’t give up middle? ‘Cause you know what? We don’t start practicing till October. We really don’t have a game till November. And the elites I’ve been around, they had this sense of today was the most important. I wanna be great today. I wanna make sure I get it right today. You know, the biggest challenge for us as coaches is how do we pass on that urgency to the players? And it starts with what we’re willing to tolerate, and especially early on, ’cause early as, uh, when I was a coach, I was thinking, hey, the off season workouts or maybe the summer, you know, hey, we’re, it’s gonna be casual, it’s gonna be a light atmosphere, and we’re gonna kinda build into this crescendo of getting ready for the season. And I’ve totally flipped where that urgency has to come from us, our staff right now, and what are we tolerating in these workouts? It doesn’t mean it can’t be fun, but they need to understand that today is important, and those that grasp that, really when I look back, are some of the elite players that we’ve been able to coach.
That’s the first thing. The other is the habits. I think about I was blessed to be backup point guard to John Stockton, so I got a front row seat at this master class of this guy. And this is before cell phones and all the video and, you know, we see Steph doing his workouts and ball handling and passing and shooting. And he was the guy that kept me in the league six more years because of his approach every day and the habits that he created of his pre-practice workout, the way he approached practice, his urgency as well, his attention to detail, and his competitive spirit. On a daily basis was just elite. And I don’t think I was at that level until I spent time and watched him and watched him dominate. And, you know, here’s a guy that, you know, he’s gonna walk into the gym and no one’s gonna recognize him as being the all-time leader in career assists and career steals in the NBA, ’cause he just blends in. He’s just a typical guy. But he was different with his urgency. He was different with his habits, and that’s something that I’m trying to pass on to our players. And one thing that helps me as a coach is this year when the guys got here, and this is a kind of me and them thing, write down your goals.
Jim Les 06:41
I want you to write down what’s important to you, what do you want to achieve, because your goals should become our goals as coaches. Well, what that allows us to do and allows me to do then is when those habits are not matching those goals, so now I’m gonna bring in my office and I’m gonna show it to him and I’m gonna read it to him. This is just words on a piece of paper. If we’re not able to do the things that I know are gonna lead to reaching those goals, you gotta allow me to push you to do that, but you also have to accept that this is what you wanted and this is what it’s gonna take.
I think the messaging helps there. And then I think the last one is the special players, coaches I’ve been around, they could edit their life. You know, we can all look at things, especially with reflection of, “Boy, I wish I would’ve changed this. I wish I would’ve done this differently.” And in real time, those elites were editing their life to make sure that they were at their best. I remember sitting down, and this was, you know, there weren’t charter flights back in the days in the late ’80s in the league. So you ended up getting per diem, so you ate a lot of meals with your teammates. So I’m sitting across from John, and it’s every day, it’s this baked chicken, it’s a vegetable, it’s a starch, it’s a salad. And who am I? I’m barely hanging on. I’m the 12th guy on the roster, and I’m ordering a burger and fries and a Coke. It’s a small example, but he was just so systematic. He was the original with taking care of his body, a chiropractor, the stretching, the recovery, the mobility, the rehab. He was doing all that. Think about this. That guy who was 6’1″, not big in stature, size, strength, I think I saw a stat 18 years in a row of playing 82 games. It’s incredible. But you gotta go back to the weeds to find out, well, why did that happen? And I saw it firsthand.
Dan Krikorian 08:40
Coach, the thing I’d like to dive into with you is, and maybe let’s look at this from the point of a coach and what you’ve learned about the great coaches or even yourself on this is urgency and edit the things in your life. And how have you learned over time to marry those two so that not everything is urgent, or what is urgent versus what isn’t as in the life of a coach, and what to put your time to and what to maybe edit out as the season begins and all those things?
Jim Les 09:07
For me, the progression as a coach is the constant communication, and I would probably call it overcommunication with the guys. And I think early in my coaching career, I was the dominant communicator. A young man came in my office, I was gonna lead the conversation, I was gonna be the middle portion, and I was gonna finish the conversation, and more having them listen. And I think that was a big mistake.
I think later on it’s changed. It’s I’m starting with questions. I’m prompting the players. And it’s not easy, ’cause we’re in a different age where the face-to-face communication is hard, but prompting them to talk about what they’re dealing with, what they’re going through, what they’re thinking. And then that helps me craft my message for how I need them to get to that level. It’s not, “Hey, come in. I need urgency. Come in. I need you to edit your life.” But let’s talk about the things that you’re doing well, let’s talk about the things that aren’t going well, and let’s delve into the whys, but I want your perspective first. You know, I look back, I was fortunate to play for Lenny Wilkens, who was an unbelievable coach. It was one season. He was awesome with his guards. And the best thing about his communication to me was he was not a man of many words, but his words were direct and impactful. And I remember him telling me this, that after a game, “Coach, I’m gonna tell you guys, I’m not gonna say a lot,” ’cause there’s emotion after a game. And most of the guys are thinking about, hey, how did they play? They’re thinking about where they’re going to dinner after the game. They’re thinking about other things. And the recap of the game should be the next day, and that gives me time to reflect. And I see young coaches a lot, and they’re having, you know, their team in the locker room for 45 minutes after a game. And I did that as a young coach. And now, man, I’m in and out and give myself 24 hours, give them 24 hours to reflect. And a lot of times we start the conversation on the reflection is, “Hey, you guys tell me what you saw, what you felt, what you were thinking about that game,” and then we come to some sort of resolve.
Patrick Carney 11:17
Coach, if we can kind of sit on that thread with team communication, and you gave a great example about post-game. But what you’ve learned or how you view your voice within the team and when to use it, when to use your assistance, I guess how you now view team communication and if it’s protecting your voice or, again, when your voice has more meaning versus getting drowned out because it’s constantly you, just your learnings from approaching your team.
Jim Les 11:46
On a day-to-day basis, and I have an awesome staff. We have the longest tenured staff in Division I basketball. So we have a great relationship, and I have complete trust in them, and I give them a lot of responsibility in practice. So you come to a practice, you’re gonna hear their voice a lot.
And really I’m at my best when I’m just picking my spots to coach individually or collectively the specific drill or whatever it is we’re focusing on. But they have the more dominant voice, which I think spreads out the responsibility of the communication. But the other part of that, Patrick, is I’ve got to be consistently trying to build trust before I can get to the truth aspect. And I tell the guys all the time, we have this saying, “Truth, we’re gonna live it, we’re gonna give it, we’re gonna take it.” But I’ve got to build that trust on a daily basis with my relationship, with them feeling concerned that I care about them as a player, and then like we can get to those tough conversations. But to me, that has to be the foundation of what we get to before we end up having those tough conversations. And then I’m also in those individual settings, bringing out their voice and prompting the question of, you know, we do a lot of fun team-building things where they’re required to stand up in front of the room and talk about the most embarrassing things that they’ve done in their life, the best things they’ve done, their accomplishments, their families. So we’re getting used to them in a really comfortable, easy environment to use their voice because we know eventually there’s gonna be some tough conversations, but it’s a buildup till we get to that.
Dan Krikorian 13:25
You’ve talked about it a little bit here on the communication piece. Is there anything else that’s sort of transformed for you over the years when it comes to how you’re messaging these things we’re talking about now versus 10 years ago, five years ago, 15, that is different?
Jim Les 13:40
We have a saying around here, it’s called the game knows, and I’m not sure how it came about, but it, you know, becomes about where it’s not me or our staff telling you this is the way it’s gonna be. The game is gonna give you feedback. I remember sitting in locker rooms and sitting next to young men who were making millions of dollars and looking at them and looking at their body and their talent and their blessings and athleticism and ability, and they didn’t respect the game. They came late. They left early. They didn’t work hard. They didn’t apply themselves. They took the game for granted. They weren’t a great teammate. They weren’t high character. And I watched the game, not anybody else, I watched the game humble those people and bring them to their knees.
So when I talk about those experiences with our players, I talk about respecting the game. The game rewards toughness, competitiveness. It rewards high character. It rewards preparation. And if you live out being a great teammate, if you’re willing to sacrifice and do those things, the game is gonna pay you back. The game is gonna give it back to you. An in-game situation is always, you know, Johnny starts out, and he’s O for six, and he’s wearing it all over his face, and that timeout comes out. “Johnny, don’t focus on O for six. Focus now on being a great teammate. Focus on impacting the game without the ball. Trust me, the game knows, and it’ll give it back to you.” And it’s amazing how when you do all those things and they focus on that, all of a sudden now I can show them on video, “Look, here you go. You got that breakout layup. You saw the ball go through the basket. Good things happen for you.” So it’s not coach knows or this guy knows. It’s the game knows. And our guys have really latched onto that because they’ll come to us at a timeout or to the bench and look at and point and go, “Game knows, Coach. I took that charge. I dove on the floor, and lo and behold, I hit that big three on the other end after missing three or four in a row.”
Speaker 5 15:47
Tying it back to at the top, you mentioned habits and the habits you’ve seen like excellence. What are the habits that are the most important to your program and that, you know, when you bring new guys in that you’re trying to instill in them and emphasize?
Jim Les 16:02
Good question. You know, everyone says, “Hey, you got to coach to your personality.” Well, mine was I probably shouldn’t have played and have the experiences I did as a player, but I did it through hard work. I did it through dedication. I was gonna outwork the guys that were more talented. I was more prepared. I tried to be meticulous and fanatical with my routines. So I tell them on the front end, “Listen, that’s who I am, and you are way more talented, gifted than I ever was,” especially at that age that they’re coming in here.
“But these things are really important to me because I know if I can instill these into you, you are going to reach your potential. I have no doubt ’cause I saw what it was able to do for me. I know what it’s gonna be able to do for you.” I just believe most guys when they go in the gym, they don’t know how to work out. They don’t understand here’s the things you need to do. So our habits is we have a pre-practice routine of ball handling, passing, and then shooting where we want our guys before practice starts to get 100 shots up before practice starts. And it’s a routine that they can really get through in 20, 25 minutes pretty easily. But we are fanatical about, “Listen, you’re doing this every time.” And we mix up the routine so it doesn’t become redundant, but they know when they walk in the gym, and we may be in the gym, we may not be in the gym, that this is what you need to do before the horn blows and we start to stretch and we start practice. We try and get the message across. Think about, you know, we have somewhere between 150 and 175 practices. So you’re telling me every day if you spend this 15, 20, 25 minutes and be diligent in getting this work, you’re not gonna be better? You’re not gonna be more skilled? Absolutely you are. And I do think we got to create those habits for them. Again, say, “You know what?” And I’m not tolerant, and I’ll call guys out. “Listen, I know you skipped the passing today. I don’t know why you skipped the passing, but you did. So you’re not hurting me. You’re helping us make a decision then because if you don’t value that as being important- Then you’re not valuing one of the really important things that we value as a staff, and that’s probably not gonna put you in a good place
Dan Krikorian 18:17
Always really curious on how coaches are trying to teach passing drills. Within this pre-practice routine, what are the passes that matter most to your program or that you’re putting the guys through?
Jim Les 18:29
So much is done now off the dribble, and it’s so… It’s being able to pick the ball off the dribble, right hand, left hand, and deliver. And there are stats that say, “Hey, you know what, Pat, when you hit me in my shooting pocket, my percentage goes up 20%. When you throw it anywhere else, it goes down 20%.” Those are impactful numbers.
So it’s nothing tricky other than a variety of different passes usually coming out of a dribble move, and then being direct about, “Listen, I want you to hit him in the chin. I want you to hit that target, and I want you to do it every time. I want you to be able to do it with both hands.” If your teammate is shooting 100 shots, that means you’re throwing 100 weak left-hand passes. You think after 150 practices that that left hand’s gonna be pretty solid? And then we try and make sure we enforce it, and in the game when we see Johnny go to the basket, you know, when he jump stops and he throws that left-handed hook pass to that guy in the corner and he nails a three, and he hits him right in the chin, that’s your habits coming to fruition on game night.
Dan Krikorian 19:36
Going back a little bit to alternate productive conflict, something we’ve kind of been talking about throughout this conversation. We’re just… You’re wanting it, you’re wanting conflict in your program in certain ways, but you want to be productive, whether it’s player to player, coach to player, team against another team.
How do you think about instilling, you know, that kind of conflict in your team, and how do you handle it? Where’s the line of it goes too far, we need to repair, versus, like, this is what good teams are made of, they, they have this within it?
Jim Les 20:06
My philosophy with our guys is I never want them to be encumbered on the floor with something on their mind that prevents them from being at their best, which means we have to be able to create an environment where they can say what they need to say that allows them to move on. I know for myself, early I was not a good communicator, so I would walk around with this… Maybe it was an interaction with a player, maybe it was something a player did that I wanted to address, but I was avoiding it, and I carried that with me for two, three, four days, and now that affected everything else I was doing because I was avoiding maybe that conversation.
So now I wasn’t as good a coach, and I know a player is not a good a player ’cause you’re noticing he’s a little bit off. And what I think has expedited our ability to get the most out of the players is creating that environment where I wanna know. If I said something in practice that you didn’t like, that you were offended, I wanna know about it. I want you to come into my office and let’s talk about it and get that off your chest. Because if I’m gonna have the same approach where, hey, something you do I don’t like, I’m gonna address it and address it right away, it’s gotta be a two-way street. Establishing that with the coaching staff also bleeds into the players, ’cause there’ll be… You guys have probably had this. Player comes in, “Coach, I’m having an issue. I don’t really like this with so-and-so.” Well, I need you to deal with it, ’cause it’s affecting you, it’s affecting our team. Let’s go have that conversation, but don’t come at it from an accusatory, “I know it all. I’m better, smarter than you.” It’s a, “Hey, I’ve noticed this, and I was just curious, why is this happening? And what’s going on, and what are you thinking? And then I wanna give you my perspective on it.” I think that’s eliminated for us a lot. It’s built a stronger connection, a stronger culture, and it’s amazing how especially the guys that have been here a while feel very confident now in having those uncomfortable conversations, whether they’re with me or whether they’re with another player. And it’s amazing how that then spreads, and the relief that they have. It’s been really positive.
Dan Krikorian 22:27
If I could follow up on the season’s tense ups and downs, wins, losses, how that extends to you and your staff, staff conflict, working through problems, making sure that people’s voices are heard. Obviously, as you’ve coached longer, I’m sure staff sizes have grown, so you just have more people to manage.
How have you managed that?
Jim Les 22:47
First of all, it’s having really good people around you. I enjoy being around my staff. They’re hardworking, they’re invested, they’re emotionally invested. They go out of their way to do the extras for the program without having to be asked. So I think it’s finding those people on the front end and then, again, it’s creating an environment where everybody feels comfortable enough, ’cause I’m asking all the time, “Tell me what you’re thinking. Tell me what you’re seeing.” And I don’t want them holding back, and I certainly don’t want them to tell me the day after the game, “Coach, we should have done… We should have gone zone. I knew we should have gone zone.” Well, you better tell me at that timeout. You better tell me during the game. I wanna know that. Now, whether I do or don’t do it, that’s on me, but you’re gonna feel better. And the fact that maybe I don’t take that suggestion can’t eliminate you from making the next suggestion. You can’t take it personal. But I think all that starts with the personal relationship and just treating people the right way.
I see a lot in coaching where, you know, we use sport as a way to say, “Hey, this is just the way it is.” And I think the way it is and the way it should be is treat people the right way. Treat them with respect. My guys all have families. We’re gonna do what we need to do to make sure that they’re getting their family time, and if we can adjust practice because your son has a baseball game, we are absolutely going to do that. But I wanna know about it. You need to tell me. And establishing that in our office. You know, we always talk about a team. We want our team to have great connection and to be together, and if your staff is fragmented, the team knows, the guys know. If you guys aren’t on the same page, if you’re not locked in, how can we ask our team to be connected? So I think it starts with us and giving our guys a voice, treating them the right way, and having fun. It’s competitive, and it’s winning and losing, and trust me, there are tough days, and I’m sure I’m not fun to be around ’cause I’m a competitive person, but being around with the right people during those times allows yourself to pull it out.
Patrick Carney 25:06
We’ve talked a lot about the importance of communication, your growth as a communicator. I think we talked a lot about, like, the techniques, the question asking, the prompts.
But how did you improve your communication, the resources you used, or maybe how did you identify your communication weaknesses and turn them into your strengths if we kinda tie it back to the reflection within excellence?
Jim Les 25:28
Larry Shyatt was my coach at Cleveland State, where I started playing, and Larry has been around the game for a long time. And Larry has hosted this clinic.
Originally, it was at Florida when he was at Florida and assisting with Billy Donovan, and Billy Donovan kinda embraced it, so we were going, you know, every year. And it was amazing pa- ’cause when I started coaching, I was like, “Hey, I’m an X and O guy.” I kinda wanted to show everybody what I knew from an X and O standpoint, and I didn’t spend enough time on myself with the communication and relationship building aspect. And in my opinion, Billy spending time every summer for a couple days in their practice facility, where we just huddle in, and for two days straight, we would just talk. And Billy rarely ever in those talked about offense, defense, and he’s elite at those. He talked about, “How can I connect with players? How can I spend time with them? How can they feel valued by me as the head coach?” And that was the red light that went on for me, going, “You know what? I never do that.” If the only time you’re seeing your guys is on the floor during practice, I think it’s gonna be really hard for you to connect. And the onus is on me to create those experiences and those times where we’re spending one-on-one time with the guys. For example, today’s our off day, and just at the end of the workout yesterday was everybody at some point today needs to come by the office. Do it when it’s convenient for you. They’ve got summer classes. They’ve got other stuff going on, and I need just some time one-on-one in my office. There might be some film around it from yesterday’s practice, but there’s gonna be, “How you doing? What’s going on?” I’ve got eight new guys. I don’t have a relationship with them, and it needs to start now.
Dan Krikorian 27:27
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Join us or renew at nebc.com/membership today. Coach, we do want to transition now to a segment on the show we call Start, Sub, or Sit. We’re gonna give you three options around a topic, ask you to start one, sub one, sit one, and then we’ll dive in and have fun with your answer from there. So Coach, if you’re set, we’ll get into this first one.
Jim Les 28:50
Sounds good. Let’s go.
Dan Krikorian 28:51
Okay. I know you’ve run a lot of different stuff throughout your career, but some of the things we’ve loved watching with your team has been some of the Princeton chin actions you guys have run over the years. So this first one’s gonna have to do with that, with Princeton or chin action, but what part of the chin or Princeton action best sets up or is most dangerous when it sets up a pick and roll after it? So you run some sort of chin action, all these screens, but then you’re gonna end it with some kind of pick and roll, and we’re gonna give you three options around what part of the chin action makes the pick and roll most dangerous at the end.
Start, sub, sit Princeton to pick and roll. The first option is that it moves the tags. So the Princeton action, the rip screens, the flare, it’s moving backside tags before the pick and roll. The second option is that it creates separation for your big to set a great angled screen. A lot of times they’re sagging off, trying to help, traffic cop. You get a good screen with that angle. Or the third option is that it creates a dynamic catch for the guard before going into the pick and roll at the end. They’ve often come off of some screen or come from somewhere else, so they’re catching in a, a dynamic way before that pick and roll. So start, sub, sit Princeton to pick and roll, moving tags, creating separation for the big, or dynamic catches.
Jim Les 30:15
I’d go with the dynamic catch for the guard. It’s something we’re really talking about and stressing and the pace at which they come out of their split cut. And we’re pretty direct and specific and detailed about where we want them to catch, and we want them there and set on the catch with the proper footwork so they can refuse that screen or use the screen.
And then I’m a big pace guy, so the pace of my bigs would be the sub and sprinting into that screen with proper angle, but it’s, it’s more the pace of it and less concerned about the weak side tags because the cutting and rim pressure we’re able to put on the rim with the some of the Princeton cuts we use allow us a lot of flexibility on the backside to screen in some of those tags. So I, I less worry about those.
Dan Krikorian 31:09
So Coach, love to start with your sub. It would be the separation for the big, and I’m sure going into games you’re got an understanding as to, you know, with the Princeton cuts, how they’re trying to guard that big and how that might change the angle or the pace of the screen.
And I guess early on, what you really think about with those bigs and teaching them where the screen should be set, the angles based off of if they’re connected versus separated from their guy?
Jim Les 31:36
We’d like them to start low and end low of the defender. You know, sprint into it with pace, but we want him to have to go over that screen. So making sure the angle that they take. You know, usually coming out of it, especially when it’s a chin up high with a catch is it’s almost butt to the corner of half court. We get a little bit that specific just so they can have the visual of what we want that to look like.
Dan Krikorian 32:03
And then going back one step, why the Princeton action over the years has been something for you to latch onto? What is it about it that you’ve loved?
Jim Les 32:12
First of all, I’m gonna give credit, my associate head coach, Kevin Nosek, who was here before I got here and worked for Gary Stewart, who’s a really good coaches at UC Merced. They did a deep dive into it.
So Kevin’s the master of it, and he really studied it and spent time with Pete Carril. I think from my standpoint, I like to have different modes as a coach. I’m gonna have a ball screen mode that we go to, and that varies based on our talent and what that looks like. We wanna have an off ball screening mode that we have. We’ll have our transition mode, and then the last mode becomes kind of our specials and our sets that we run on dead balls. So in the process of trying to find, so you think about the Princeton, one, it punishes good defensive principles. Two, when I looked around, especially in our league and when we were in the Big West and now we go to the Mountain West, not a lot of people run it, so it makes us a little bit different. At the time we started it, we were probably maybe not as athletic as others, and I thought it really helped with our spacing, our ability to put pressure on the rim and fulfill a mode for us that has been, I think, successful.
Dan Krikorian 33:32
You said the one thing about the Princeton is that it punishes good defensive principles. Could you go a little deeper on that and what potentially it punishes?
Jim Les 33:41
Everybody is into the pressure. You know, they’re gonna get up and get into you, and it punishes the pressure, you know, in the gap. The ball gets driven in your gap, and you’re gonna go attack the ball, and you’re gonna stay and help and present in that gap. Well, the instincts of everybody is now we’re gonna back cut you on those dribble outs as the ball presents itself, and as you’re gonna do what you’re told to do defensively, it puts defenses back on their heels and doesn’t allow them to be as aggressive.
And it also requires everybody’s doing a lot of switching, you know, one through five, one through four, and the split cuts and the detail of the split cuts that Kevin works with our guys on where they’re going to occur, how they’re gonna occur, and the ability to, with pace, make the defense communicate at a high level and talk on those switches really presents problems. What else it’s helped us do is it’s helped our guys read defenses. Teams are gonna switch. This team’s not gonna switch, and we’ll go into games and we’ll have prepped that, and now we know the types of cuts that are available to us.
Patrick Carney 34:55
Coach, I want to follow up on teaching split cuts. How do you help your guys read? Is there an order of operations when the two players come into it? How do you keep it random and not just rote, the important teaching points to being an effective split cutting team?
Jim Les 35:10
We say the feeder is the leader. So when I feed the get guy, the flash guy, you know, the high post, whatever you want to call him, I’m leading as I sprint into the next action.
And once I’m in control until I pop my feet on that screen. Once I pop my feet on that screen, now if I’m coming to get Dan, now I put you in control. Now you’re making a decision, which means if I’m gonna get out of that screen without setting it and slip it because I know they’re switching and my guy, I feel like he’s a little above me and there’s a little gap in between, they haven’t come together. So we very rarely have two guys cutting at the same time because we’re working on that read and now as the screener, I’m gonna go. And now it leaves the guy, Dan, who’s in the corner waiting on my screen, now he knows he’s the next up. Now he can make the decision of how he’s going to pull back. He’s gonna come off that dribble hand off, or he’s gonna get a catch and get the ball screened. Those little details are helpful. And then once I do set it, now the toughest thing we have to, especially with the new guys, everybody wants to run to the ball in this day and age, and we gotta put pressure on. You have to give yourself up And someone needs to put pressure on the rim, which is gonna collapse the defense, which is gonna now allow the next action to occur, and I think that’s the biggest thing we struggle with early on, and there’ll be some video today that we’ll talk about to hopefully correct some of those.
Patrick Carney 36:36
Coach, that kinda bleeds into my next question, and tying it back to the start, sub, sit, when we talk about using a split cut, using some sort of off-ball action to run a ball handler into the pick and roll, I think a lot of players are growing up with the ball in their hand, but now they’re being asked to play off catch. How are you helping them read defense, not waste dribbles when they’re coming off of an action into the ball screen with a catch?
Jim Les 37:00
To start, we give them a progression. The reason off the split cut you pull back is to create a closeout, and we all know, and we’re struggling with it defensively, is the toughest thing to do is close out on guys.
So offensively, you gotta be detailed in your footwork and in your pace that when you pull back off of that split cut, that you’re creating space from your defender where now you have an opportunity, but I’m not even worried about the screen until I explore attacking that closeout, you know, which ends up being a refusal. So I think that helps, and then getting to the progression of, okay, they took away the refusal or the drive, which creates a nice setup game for me, and now as I come off the screen, I am no longer worried about my defender once I have my setup game. I’m focusing on what the defense of the big is doing and how I’m gonna attack that ball screen coverage. And just going through that progression, you know, I’m just a big believer is on your second dribble off of that ball screen, you should be ready to make your decision.
Dan Krikorian 38:12
Earlier, you talked about the different modes, pick and roll mode, off ball, transition, specials. How do you determine what your team needs during a game, what you’re switching it up, whether you go into a game with a certain game plan? What’s the thoughts behind what mode you’re in?
Jim Les 38:27
Really good question. Early on, we’ll throw a piece of each mode at them. We may start the game, you know, running the split cuts. We may, on a free throw or next time, we’ll get into some of our ball screen stuff. We may mix in a set or two just to see how they react to it, and it’s clear a lot of times that, boy, they’ve really prepped for the ball screen motion that we’re trying to run, and even though it’s kinda random, but they’re ready for it.
So we’re gonna gravitate away from that, and we’ll tell the guys that, “Hey, we’re not doing that. We’re gonna get more to the split cuts ’cause that’s given us better… We’re gonna run some more sets and do some more of our off ball stuff within our sets to stay away from the ball screens.” That’s, to me, a good example, or I’m watching, you know, the tape and we’re playing the team the second time, and we see the percentages show on these possessions when we ran this, we had a high success rate. When we ran this, not as good. So we’ll gravitate away to those different modes, and it’s nice to have them, and the guys know that we can– they’re comfortable in those adjustments. Heck, there’s been games and we’ve been horrible for whatever reason with our kinda free-flowing offenses, which is the split cuts and the ball screens. You know what? We gotta get more control as a staff. We’re gonna run sets, and then we’re prepared for that too. I feel like, as paranoid as we all are as coaches, it gives you enough ammunition going in that regardless of what they do, we’re gonna have an answer for it.
Patrick Carney 40:02
Our next start, sub, sit, what has changed the most in your coaching philosophy? You’ve had a long career. You’ve seen a lot in the game. You’ve been around a lot of, as we talked about, players, coaches, teams. So start, sub, sit, what has changed the most in your coaching philosophy?
Has it been option one in terms of pace, pace of play, pace of the game? Pace is very broad, but just your view on pace. Option two, offensive rebounding, or option three, ball screen schemes, ball screen defense.
Jim Les 40:38
That’s a tough one ’cause I’ve always been a pace guy, but that’s true to who I am. I wanna play fast, so I would do that as my start.
My sub would be the ball screen schemes, and you said defensively, correct?
Patrick Carney 40:56
Yes.
Jim Les 40:57
I guess I would say this as I always want the ability to change up. Change up offensively, change up defensively within a game, and being able to change coverages that obviously a team is prepared for, is taking advantage of us. I wanna have that in my arsenal.
That gives me some comfort that we can address, you know, whatever someone’s having success with offensively. And then the last would be the offensive rebound, and quite frankly, I’ve done a horrible job of coaching it because we have not been a very good offensive rebounding team and we’re gonna continue to try and address it, but I’m gonna sit that, but it’s sitting it more ’cause my ineptitude than feeling it’s not important.
Patrick Carney 41:41
Great answer. I’d like to start with your sub, ball screen defense, and you mentioned you like to be able to have a couple coverages.
And I’m always curious when you are gonna have a couple coverages from an aggressive, maybe a more passive or drop coverage, the considerations you make then in terms of the other three defenders around the ball and what you’ve kinda learned in terms of can you have then multiple tagging schemes or more help, less help from the three players around the ball screen based on you being able to slide your coverage up in terms of aggression?
Jim Les 42:16
That’s always the challenge is, you know, I think it starts, and as we’re talking about our ball screen coverages now and putting them in, it’s continuing to emphasize That it’s not the two guys involved in the action that we’re relying. It’s impressing upon that all five guys have a job to do, and we need you to do it at a high level.
Now, that job varies based on the coverage, and your reads vary based on what your responsibilities are, but it centers on continuing to emphasize the ball and the importance of the ball is gonna dictate what your responsibility is doing and where the ball is going. And if you’re moving, we call it air time is our time. If you’re moving when the ball’s moving, it’s gonna put you in the right position, whether you’re the tag guy, whether you’re the help guy, whether you’re the backside closeout guy, it’s gonna put you in the right position as long as you’re moving when the ball mo- If the ball moves or is moving and you have not moved yet, you’re gonna be behind the play, and it doesn’t matter how well you know it, it doesn’t matter what we emphasize, you’re gonna be late to the party.
Patrick Carney 43:25
How complex do you think a defense can be within a possession when looking at the ball screen in terms of can you have two coverages within a possession? Most obvious example being late clock switch it, or a team be able to recognize if it’s the four man, it’s this coverage, or if it’s this ball handler, it’s this coverage.
Your takeaways on being able to scale complexity within your defense on a given possession when looking at the ball screen.
Jim Les 43:53
We start pretty simple. You know, when I say that I wanna have multiple coverage, that’s in my ideal world. But what I’ve also found in twenty-five years of doing this is start with the simple and get great with that discipline of executing the simple, and then be able to add nuances that maybe make you different or complex.
But creating the philosophy of we’re gonna be aggressive, we’re gonna be into the ball, I don’t know of any defense that is any good that doesn’t get after people in some way or form. So establishing that mentality and then figuring out the IQ of what they can handle. And it’s getting different. You know, with eight new guys, we’re giving them our base and our basics. Are they gonna be able to handle more? It hasn’t shown itself yet. But it’s early, and I don’t expect them to ’cause I think a lot of times we have in our head, and I know what I’d like to have going into a game, but if we have three different coverages and we’re crappy at all three of them, what’s the point? So I think we gotta also pull back and go, “You know what? Let’s get back to simple, and let’s get them back to discipline doing these things. Once we get the discipline of doing these things, we can get to the freedom that I know I’d like to have to be able to make those choices.”
Dan Krikorian 45:19
Coach, offensive rebounding. You joked about it a little bit, and team’s not been great at it.
As a head coach, when you figure out mid-season a deficiency in your team, and let’s just take offensive rebounding, what do you think about doing? Trying to better the deficiency, or just cover it in a different way? If you know that your team’s not great offensive rebounding in December, do you just say, “Forget it. Let’s just be really great in transition defense and shot selection’s gotta be perfect, and we’ll deal with this next year”? Or are you really trying to gain more margins on the offensive rebounding? What do you think about there?
Jim Les 45:54
Well, my wife must have told you I’m really stubborn, so- … I will fight it till January. Trust me, I will.
We’ll try everything, and I’ll make calls, and I’ll get all kinds of drills, but at some point I will go, “Okay.” And that’s what the beauty of basketball and coaching and talking to all the different people and listening to you guys and your guests is there’s just so many different ways to have success and to do it and having a positive influence on your team that, you know, my initial stubbornness is gonna be, “Hey, we’re gonna fight this, and I’m– we’re gonna drill it, and I’m gonna try and get guys to embrace this.” But at some point, it’s not happening. And I, I don’t know why that’s not necessarily, but how can we now turn this into this is gonna be a strength for us, like you said. Now, now let’s get great in our transition defense, and we’re not giving up points that way ’cause we’re not getting extra possessions on the offensive end.
Dan Krikorian 46:49
Coach, you’re off the Start, Sub, Sit hot seat. Thanks for going through those with us. That was a ton of fun. We got a final question to close the show.
Before we do, really appreciate your time today. This was a great conversation, so thanks again for coming on.
Jim Les 47:02
Thank you. Much appreciated. Honored to be here.
Dan Krikorian 47:05
Thanks, Coach. Our final question that we ask all the guests is, what’s the best investment that you’ve made in your career as a coach?
Jim Les 47:13
Well, I touched on it here in the talk, and it’s kept me in coaching. Probably with COVID, I think I might have missed a year and I had a wedding, so twenty-three of the twenty-five years I’ve spent at the Larry Shy coaching clinic. You know, it started out as probably twenty-five coaches in a room and, you know, one of the first years I went, Erik Spoelstra had just won his first championship, and this is in August, so it’s, you know, a month and a half after he won the ch– and he’s sitting there and taking notes. And that resonated with me that I’ve got to continue to invest in this unbelievable opportunity to coach young men and making sure that I’m trying to be the best that I can be and continuing to grow and learn and pick up things.
And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been there at these clinics and around unbelievable coaches, and sometimes it reinforces, hey, this is what we’re doing and you feel better about who you are as a coach and maybe what you’re teaching your guys. And then there’s other times I’m like, “You’re an idiot. I can’t believe. Why didn’t you think of that?” They simplified something that seemed, you know, that I was treating as such a complex problem, and they simplified it with their vocabulary or with their philosophy behind it. And just being in that environment, and it’s a long way to go. This year it was in Charlotte, so it’s a long flight to get from California all the way there. Before I go I’m like, “Ah, I really don’t feel like going. It’s a long time. It’s a short stay. I gotta get back. I may have to miss a workout because it’s traveling.” Hands down the best thing I’ve done, and it’s kept me in this business as long as it has because of those people who are willing to share, just like you guys are, and you get all your guests to share, and that’s a big component of it.
Dan Krikorian 49:07
Pat, let’s get into this recap. Coach Les, one of the greats when it comes to coaches out here on the West Coast, been around the game, was a great player, great coach. It just– Whenever you get someone on, like, we’re honored to have someone on like him, who’s just got so much knowledge, been through it all, seen it all, and what comes out of it every single time is a great podcast, because there’s just so much behind every stat, detail, story, because he’s been through it so many times, and he did not disappoint. It was a really fun conversation.
Patrick Carney 49:37
Completely. With guests that we’ve had on that have such a long career arc so far and have seen it from players, different levels, WNBA, Division II, Division I, et cetera, et cetera, like, I always enjoy when– like we did with this one, with the first conversation being, like, a, not a perspective, but kind of looking at just the art of coaching, the excellence they’ve been around, the countless experiences they’ve had with teams, players, other coaches.
With that, Dan, I’ll throw it to you for the first takeaway.
Dan Krikorian 50:08
So was fun to dive into the first bucket being what is the top one percent of coaches, players, teams that he’s been around. What do they seek? What do they need? What do you do as a coach when you’ve got a group like that? I think that’s what, you know, we were after, those kinds of learnings and nuggets.
And right away I’ll say the urgency, the habits, and the edit your life.
Patrick Carney 50:28
Mm-hmm.
Dan Krikorian 50:29
Those three points I thought were tremendous going through that. But I think I wanna pull out two other things that I really liked.
When we got to the game knows and, like, respecting the game, I thought that was a really great part of the conversation, and it added, like, more context behind why the habits are important, why you need to edit, why you need to have the urgency. And basically the underpinning of if, if you don’t do these things, you’re not respecting the game, you’re not respecting what the great teams have done, and then the results are inevitably going to be probably suboptimal. And it was really cool when he tied that back in, and you got really a sense of their culture and their program as to you’re not just doing these things because it just sounded good on a coaching clinic or a podcast.
Patrick Carney 51:12
No.
Dan Krikorian 51:13
This is what the greats have done to respect the game, and if you respect it in these ways, the outcomes can be great. So I really liked that.
And then the other part of that first bucket I really enjoyed was when we got into, and it was kind of sprinkled throughout, but his transformation in the communication standpoint as a coach, and I think I asked him about, like, productive conflict when we got with that from the player standpoint and then also, like, as a staff, and just talking about the parts of this job that are sometimes the most uncomfortable, having the productive conflict with players and your staff, and just how he’s managed that and his view on it, and I thought he was great on those things.
Patrick Carney 51:49
I really liked, to your first point, using the game knows as a framing piece to drive habits within the players. I just think it takes the onus on, “Oh, well, Coach wants me to do this, Coach wants that,” and just filter it through a different lens to really hit and stick with players and land to, like we talked about, the habits that matter, trying to impose urgency on the players. So really like that piece.
My big takeaway was the communication thread that was tied in throughout all of it. I think you and me are always interested in just building critical communication. Of course, teams that can communicate, but in the pressure moments, that can really communicate, and how coaches are trying to achieve that and especially with a group that’s coming together and the time is limited and one group is only gonna be together for eight months, like, how you– methods, methodologies, tactics, strategies, techniques, all of that to build that, and I think it always comes back to the question-asking. Hearing him talk too about with, like, the player trust, building player trust is giving them prompts, making them talk. I go back to our storytelling conversation with Claire Murphy, with Preston Klein. We had coaches on too that talked about tell me your hardship, tell me a time you failed, and these off-the-court things that are so crucial to building on-court success.
Dan Krikorian 53:10
Yeah. We had Dr. Sarah Sarkis on last year, and one of the best non-basketball coaching conversations we had last year, and her thing was about the level of conflict and pressure that you need to put on a group that will then lead to group flow later. And one of the best conversations on that, and I think this is the interesting part of, you know, what Coach Les was talking about today, is just the balance of bringing a group together and then also putting pressure on them at the same time.
Especially right now, early in the season, the pressure is not coming from games or opponents. It’s coming from within. It’s coming from you as the head coach or your staff. That balance of let’s get them together, let’s, you know, pizza night, let’s go out and get to know each other, and then also let’s get into some drills and some stuff where we’re gonna mix it up, and I think that’s, like, a really cool balance and art as a coach. And we’re, you know, recording this early preseason stuff where you don’t have your enemy crosstown rival on the schedule on Friday yet. You just have a bunch of practices in front of you, and how do you just do that every day I think is a great art and a fun conversation. I thought Coach talked about that really well today.
Patrick Carney 54:25
Yeah. This is something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately with in terms of team events, team bonding events, and whether, like you said, pizza, movie night, whatever, we’re putting a group together outside of practice and really thinking about the purpose behind it. I think often maybe we do an event, and not that every event needs to have, like, this intentionality behind it. You don’t wanna just wear the players out with- Wow, coach is super serious all the time, but walking away from some team events and really like, okay, it was a great time.
The guys talked. We talked shit, we had fun, we made jokes, yada, yada, yada. But what was the intention behind it? Did we drive or prompt communication in a meaningful way or some sort of team building, like really strategy building, you know, where the guys had to interact with each other outside of just shooting the shit? And it’s just something as I’m going through preseason myself and thinking about the next few weeks, ways to just put more intentionality behind these team building to whatever it is, to squeeze an extra one percent of communication out of our group, to build trust and on top of finding that balance, like you mentioned, between it is still a game, we’re gonna be together for so long, for so intense, find moments to just enjoy each other as well, also, of course, has value.
Dan Krikorian 55:44
For sure. Well, Pat, ton of stuff in that first bucket, but let’s keep it moving, and I’ll throw it back to you for the next takeaway.
Patrick Carney 55:52
I’ll go to your start sub sit when we talked about using chin as the ball screen setup. Really appreciated the level of detail, coaching detail that Coach Less shared with us.
Quickly, this won’t be my takeaway. I mean, I like when he talked about ball screen mode, transition mode, set pieces. I’m sure we’ll get back to it, but I just like talking about the split cuts. I’m always interested in just the order of operations, helping guys read the split cuts. I think when it goes right, the offense is always right, but how do you go about teaching it so you’re getting those correct solutions? I like, again, going back to just teaching things simpler through vocabulary, the feeder is the leader. Pop the feed, I think that’s something we heard with Coach Ryan Pannone to some sort of extent, but I like kind of the order of progressions he talked about, and then when I followed up on just, okay, well now playing a ball screen kind of off of a catch, helping your players again to kind of make the reads and knowing first that if you’re gonna pop back, it’s to create a closeout, and the first thing is don’t play a ball screen. Let’s attack that closeout. So I just enjoyed hearing again how different coaches are trying to teach these actions and to his best investment, you know, hearing coaches explain complex actions in simpler terms so we can be able to teach it to our players is kind of where I found the value of this start sub sit.
Dan Krikorian 57:09
Yeah. I won’t regurgitate ’cause I thought he was really good in the weed stuff with you on those split cuts and all that.
I really took away a lot from the zooming out perspective a little bit on some of these things, why he likes chin so much, and he talked about it punishes good defensive principles. It gives you pressure releases against teams that are trying to deny or even talked about like heavy stunt teams. It can just punish a good defensive principle. I thought that was like a good nugget. And then I really liked when we did get into the modes.
Patrick Carney 57:40
Yeah.
Dan Krikorian 57:41
And when he started to talk about philosophy on going into a game, mixing some of the modes or the balance of, you know, we’re gonna be seventy/thirty on the pick and roll mode versus the off ball, or we’re gonna test them here to see. I thought that was just really nice insights on we all have our base stuff we wanna do, but then how do you, especially early in the game, like you mentioned, kind of test a team’s scout and see what are they prepared for, where might an advantage be as the game flows on, and I thought that was really good stuff.
Patrick Carney 58:13
Yeah.
Dan Krikorian 58:14
Well, Pat, tons of stuff in here today, of course. Were there any other areas, not misses by Coach Less, of course, but any other areas you thought we could have gone down or questions you wish we would have asked?
Patrick Carney 58:24
In the my start sub sit, when we talked about kind of what’s maybe changed the most in his philosophy over the course of his career, he mentioned that kind of pace has always rung true with him and always have been important. I wish I’d followed up, though.
I mean, I think the game itself has changed so much, so I’m sure kind of what he views pace to be now versus maybe when he first started his career. I think there’s always an interesting conversation with pace, but what it means, you know, I think with him, my through this conversation was like pace of action, the next play, multiple actions. So I wish I just kind of followed up. I, I think the conversation went in a really interest. I thought you had a great question on offensive rebounding, and then talking about ball screen schemes and the nuances. You know, I really enjoyed where it went.
Just never got back to pace, and I wish I had kind of followed up there.
Dan Krikorian 59:10
Yeah. I would double down on that, but just happening upon towards the end there, the conversation about do you cover your deficiencies versus get better somewhere else, and I thought there’s no coach listening to this that doesn’t have one of those trade-offs to make-
Patrick Carney 59:25
Yeah
Dan Krikorian 59:25
… in their season. You’re in December or January, and there’s something– there’s a deficiency or at least a weak point of your team.
If you don’t have that, then you’re probably not listening to this anymore because-
Patrick Carney 59:34
Congratulations. Yeah.
Dan Krikorian 59:36
Yeah. But everyone else, there’s something that, like, you’re just as a staff, every practice, every pregame, like, you’re trying to figure out, what do we do here?
And I thought it was interesting with the offensive rebounding thing of, like, how much can you really change? And of course, he talked about he’s, you know, joked about being stubborn and you’re going to try, and of course, we keep trying, but internally, do you just say, like, “Well, if we’re not gonna get X percentage of offensive rebounds because it’s a personnel thing or our scheme is, is too late to change, we just need to double down somewhere else.” I just think that’s a conversation we could have probably on every podcast with every coach ’cause it’s just a fun one.
Patrick Carney 01:00:12
Yeah. I agree. The trade-off conversation is never ending. There’s trade-offs for everything.
Dan Krikorian 01:00:17
Well, once again, we thank Coach Less for coming on for a terrific conversation. Thank you everybody for listening, and we’ll see you next time.
Patrick Carney 01:00:30
Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Please make sure to visit slappingglass.com for more information on the free newsletter, Slapping Glass Plus, and much more. Have a great week coaching, and we’ll see you next time on Slapping Glass.