We had the pleasure of sitting down this week with the legendary Head Coach of Davidson MBB, Bob McKillop! In this fantastic conversation the we explore Coach McKillop’s thoughts on the core principles of offensive execution and efficiency, the importance of self reflection, and discuss maximizing odd practice situations, and healthy confrontations during the always fun “Start, Sub, or Sit?!”
Transcript
Bob McKillop 00:00
The one thing that I really miss, when we lost the game, I was like, miserable. You know, you guys know that experience. However, the next day, I would wake up almost like rejuvenated. Wow, this is a chance for us to get better. This is a chance for us to establish some new strategies. This is a chance for us to attack what’s in front of us. I miss that hunger to bounce back off the mat. That was something that just drove me. You know, you got to be in the center ring swinging. You’re going to get knocked to the ropes. You’re going to get knocked to the mat, but you got to get back in the center ring. I don’t miss the losing, but I missed that planning to get back off the mat and start swinging again.
Dan 00:48
Hi I’m Dan Krikorian and welcome to Slappin’ Glass, exploring basketball’s best ideas, strategies, and coaches from around the world. Today we’re excited to welcome legendary Head Coach, Davidson Men’s Basketball, Bob McKillop. Coach McKillop is here today to discuss his philosophies and core principles when it comes to offensive execution and efficiency, the importance of self-reflection and knowing yourself as a head coach. And now, please enjoy our conversation with Coach Bob McKillop. Coach, we wanted to dive in with your thoughts on offensive execution and any key or core principles that over the years you developed or believed in and stuck to no matter who you had on your team, no matter what tweaks or variations you might have put in over the course of the season, but core things that you truly believe in makes a team a good offensive team.
Bob McKillop 02:51
Well, you clearly go back to the schoolyards and the playgrounds of Queens, New York, where every young boy in the 1950s and 60s learned how to pass, dribble, shoot, catch, defend, rebound. And what I find fascinating about the recollection of that experience is that when it snowed, we shoveled the court. When it was windy, we shot layups rather than jump shots. There were steel backboards, no nets on the rims. So shooting a close-in shot was a lot more advantageous than shooting a jump shot. So we adapted. I think one of the greatest adaptions in the history of our game is what happened in 1969, I believe, when they took the dunk away because Lew Alcindor was dominating college basketball at UCLA with the dunk, and they took it away. So what did Luke do? Did Luke cry about it? No, he’s gone down in history for being the master of one of the greatest shots in the game, the Sky Hook. So instead of crying about not being able to dunk, he just developed, he adapted and developed the Sky Hook. And that’s the way I have looked at offense. It’s been an adaption as we’ve gone through the years because there have been so many changes, not just from the rules standpoint, but from the cultural standpoint. And I’m continually adding to it or changing it or adapting it or facilitating a different way of looking at it. It’s been a changing process. And without doubt, going from being a college player to being a high school coach to being a college coach has given me three different stages to do that on. And probably the thing that really jumps out to me was my experience going to Europe. In 1981, I had my first clinic in Europe, in Italy, and it was just mind boggling to me to see the emphasis on soccer there. Now this is 1981 and how basketball was always gonna be trailing soccer in terms of interest. And as I watched soccer, I realized the spacing in soccer was something that the European coaches adopted and adapted to. And all of a sudden spacing became a critical component of offensive philosophy. As that evolved, then the three point line came into effect. A further addition to the culture, but something that could create spacing as well cause now it’s a definitive point on the court that you could use when you strategize. So the concept of spacing, I think is the greatest thing that has been part of my evolution as a coach. And I’m convinced that the game is a war for space. Whether it’s in the offensive end or the defensive end, your goal is to win space. You get space to be able to make a pass, you get space to be able to make a dribble, you get space to be able to make a catch, you get space to be able to make a shot. And on a converse part of that is you take away space, you earn that space defensively, take away the offensive player space. So it’s a war for space. And that is the cardinal critical rule of our offensive game plan at Davidson.
Dan 06:05
Going back to your time in Europe, were there any other, as you I know went over multiple times to do clinics and learn about the game, outside of spacing, the way that Europe played and still plays that you found advantageous to bring back to Davidson as far as style or spacings that they had or pick and roll, play and pass, all that stuff that I know Europe does so well that you felt was a key component?
Bob McKillop 06:31
Well, I’m not a great pick and roll guy, and I can remember being in Treviso, Italy at La Guitarrada, which was Treviso Benetton’s practice court, and outside the court and the apartment complex, there was a big sheet, and it said in English, sex, drugs, and pick and roll. You know, there’s a sense that the European game is all about the pick and roll, and see, I don’t think so. I think there’s a tremendous amount of pick and roll, both in the European game, in the NBA, and now in the college game. What I learned and what I understood was the multiple aspects of each individual player. He was very diversified. And I find that basketball doesn’t change very much. The things that happened in the 1950s still happening today. So in one great example of that, the way that Fordham University, under Digger Phelps, in the late 60s, early 70s, dominated the New York basketball scene, filling Madison Square Garden to capacity, because they had five interchangeable players. All of them could do all the skills, and it was difficult to guard them. So well in advance of what we see now in our culture about playing small or small ball or point forward, whatever it might be, that was started back in the 1970s. And I think that was something that was very evident in Europe in the 1980s. And now, just watching this past Sunday, I’m watching St. John’s beat Connecticut, Rick Patino took a page out of that book, because his team right now is just like that Digger Phelps team in the 1970s. And also like those European teams that I was first exposed to back in the 1980s. So I think that versatility is something that’s critical. Here’s sort of the things you learn as you get older as a coach. Parents will always say something like, well, my son should be a point guard, not a four man, or my son should be a three man and not a five man. My son should play facing the basket, not his back to the basket. So in order for me to remove those temptations of parents to question me, I found that if everybody could do everything, parents would never ask that question. Cause I never told that someone was a point guard or a small forward or a center. He was just a player. And I think that that is probably the basis for what we do offensively. You know, that versatility along with that spacing.
Pat 08:50
When teaching that versatility through the lens of like you mentioned winning space How do you go about teaching it on a skill development level? Maybe to when you get freshmen? I guess what is the biggest hurdle with them understanding how to win space maybe in different aspects with the ball without the ball Where do you kind of always run into? Challenges with a young player, you know
Bob McKillop 09:13
You know growing up in New York again, I referenced Broadway. And if you go watch a Broadway show in its creation, you see the dancers repeating and repeating and repeating their dance steps broken down into minor parts. You see the musicians play different notes, you see the actors recite different lines, and then the director needs to put all of that together, but only after repetition, repetition, repetition, so that that creates habit and habit becomes instinct. Now that’s a difficult process for a young freshman or any kid to learn today. You know, we live in this remote control society where kids don’t have long periods of attention, and now you’re putting them through practice in which the first 10 minutes of practice is just rehearsing, passing, catching, cutting, and finishing. Simple as that, you do a 10-minute drill. And this is boring. I want to just play. Give me the ball. And you finally get them convinced that this is the way we’re going to play. But in the recruiting process, you have to get kids that are willing to learn and willing to be taught and willing to be coached. So we do that through repetition. And we also have the advantage of upperclassmen who teach that to them, who hold them accountable for it. You know, Red Auerbach said many years ago that the players were the enforcers of the discipline. So he had Satch Sanders, and he had Bill Russell, and he had Casey Jones, and he had Bob Cousy, and he had Bill Sharman. They enforced the discipline. So when the rookies came on board, like the John Havliceks or whoever it might have been, they were put not just by Red, but by the veteran players. That again, that’s back to the 1960s, early 1960s. So nothing has changed very much in our game.
Pat 10:59
Giving the players’ repetitions and with this winning space battle, when it came in like a five-on-five setting and understanding how the individual can win space in certain situations but now as a team collectively trying to create and win the space and understanding your teammates, how did that kind of next layer of teaching then a team to win space?
Bob McKillop 11:19
The concept that we use is attack space, not win space, but attack space. We always wanna be in the aggressive form. We always wanna not declare a win and a loss, but the attack mentality. So what happens when you try to teach that to guys in a concept of a team, you have to show them how sacrifice equals reward. That’s one of the cardinal tenets of our offensive and defensive philosophy, sacrifice equals reward. So I have the ball, I’m on the wing, and I got a defender in my face. Well, if the post player is posting up by attacking space, that occupies that post defender. So if I was to drive to the basket, my teammate sacrifices to post up, not so much to demand the ball, but to force his defender to play him, that makes one less defender gonna stop me. I’ve got the ball and my post player is posting up and I take the ball and I rip it to my knee like I’m gonna drive it. What does the defender do? The defender immediately gets down even further in a defensive stance. He leans in the direction of that fake and opens up the space for me to pass it over his shoulder to my teammate in the post. So I attack the space in the low area to get the space to throw the ball. And there’s the sacrifice reward concept in that whole scenario.
Pete Carril used to always say, when you help somebody, you help yourself. That’s a fact of life, not just basketball. And that’s why basketball is life because what you learn on a basketball court is what you live in your life. But when he would stress the importance of a cut, for instance, he would say that a cut is just as valuable as a screen. So I’m cutting hard. And when I cut hard, who’s going with me? My defender. If I cut soft and I lollygag through my cut, the defender can linger in the paint and linger on covering me. So he becomes another help defender. So by cutting hard or by screening hard, I’m getting somebody open. And by doing that, I’m getting a teammate open and I might get myself open. Let’s look at our current scenario with the three-point line the way it is. One of our other rules is finish your cut. So we will never make a cut and stay in what we call no man’s land or the mud. Inside the three-point line is the mud, no man’s land. And as a former history teacher, no man’s land during World War I was when you got your butt shot. Well, it’s the same way in basketball. You hang out in no man’s land, someone’s gonna get shot. So we made sure our guys finished outside the arc or finished at the front rim when they made their cut. Finishing at the front rim, obviously the defend is gonna place serious attention to him. Finishing out to the arc, the defender either has to go out with him or he’s gonna stay and help. If he stays and help and then I drive it, I have helped my teammate by finishing my cut, my teammate by driving it, helps me by delivering the ball to the pocket, let me shoot an open three-pointer. If, however, I cut so hard and I’m a great three-point shooter and defender follows me out to the arc, then I by my cut have helped my teammate because I’ve taken help defense out of the paint and therefore gives him one guy to beat to the rim. So it’s the whole concept of sacrifice equals reward. When you help somebody, you help yourself.
Pat 14:53
Coach, when looking at cutting, I know that certain times maybe it cuts, it’s dictated or it’s part of an automatic, but when basically being a read-based cut with the cutter and attacking space, who is he reading making a read-based cut?
Bob McKillop 15:09
We have so many different parts of our language at Davidson. Back cut, don’t beg is one of them. You watch a kid today, he wants the ball, so he begs for it. What does he do? He goes outside above the three-point line. He almost goes to what would be the volleyball line in many college courts. He goes to that volleyball line because he’s begging for it. But what does he do by begging? He’s giving up space, he’s surrendering space. I’m not a guy who surrenders, I attack. So if I back cut, don’t beg because I’m at the arc, I’m not open. I’m immediately attacking that space. How many guys cut purposefully? They don’t cut and look for the ball. They cut just because they don’t get the ball. Well, cut to dread that guy with you, but cut to get open and look for the ball. By looking for the ball, I’m using my eyes to now occupy a defender. It’s like the guy that’s playing second base in baseball, and the runner doesn’t know whether to catch it through the ball or not. He uses his eyes and glove to fake out the runner. It’s the same thing in basketball. You use every part of your instinct, every part of your opportunity to fake the guy out. But by cutting with my eyes and with my hands out, holy Christmas, I might get the ball. Details are really big for me, so I come off a screen. If I have my hands out, I am like the catcher behind home plate who’s put my mid up for the pitcher to throw the ball. If I come off a screen but I don’t have my hands out, holy Christmas, I’m going to be slower with the catch. I’m not giving my passer a target. I’m not helping my teammates. When you help somebody, you help yourself. And we would always use the expression ask with 10. You’re one pass away from the ball, you’re asking with 10 fingers.
Dan 17:01
I’d love to ask about pace of play and pace of your offense and over the years with different shot clocks and things like that, what your thoughts are on how quickly, first of all, you want to run into your stuff, how fast things run once they’re in the half court when you talk about the details of reading things and just your overall philosophy on that in order to gain a high quality shot each time.
Bob McKillop 17:23
All right, I’m conducting the New York Symphony Orchestra. Do I start the music and then all of a sudden I stop in the middle of the music and say, okay, let’s turn the page? Of course not. The game of basketball is all about rhythm and flow. So we have a full court offense. Through the net, off the glass, off the floor, we are running. We’re trying to score in the first seven seconds. So in the first seven seconds, we have designed places to go in our offense. The wings run to the corner, one of the bigs runs to the front rim, the other big is a trailer and a point guard attacks the elbow, but he stays in the pocket. The pocket being like the quarterback in football, the pocket is between the lane lines extended up and down the court. By going in the pocket, he could see both sides of the court. The defenders have to then worry about him attacking the middle so they cannot be in denied position. By stretching to the corners, the wings now have deflated defense. By running to the front rim, you don’t know which side the guy’s going to post up on. So many coaches, they go down, they send a guy to the low block, right side, left side, whatever. You establish yourself on one block right away, all of a sudden you said, which side you’re going to attack. But my point guard’s in the pocket, so he can attack either side. My big is at the front rim, so he could post either side. And your whole purpose is to deflate the first seven seconds, you’re trying to deflate. And you say, coach, well, geez, that’s really, that’s too detailed. Well, discipline comes before freedom. We want to be disciplined, but once you are disciplined, then you use the freedom you have that that discipline created. So as you see us come up the court, we got front rim, two corners, elbow with the point guard, top of the key for the trailer. We don’t say set it up, we’re already set up. Once we start running, once we get possession, we’re already set up. And we know that once we get to those spots, now we are just going to flow using our five rules of offense, very simple.And I’ll go over those five rules in a second. But let me just make sure you understand what we do once we get into that rhythm. We don’t believe that you could score against an entrenched defense on the first five, seven, 10 seconds of the possession. So we want to catch them backpedaling in transition. That’s our first objective, deflate the defense once they have recovered, once they have entrenched themselves. Now we got to make them make a mistake. A mistake would be not talking, turning their head, standing up, losing sight, not helping on a screen. Defenders make all kinds of mistakes, but they only will make a mistake if you give them chance to make a mistake by making them defend. So we’ll make them defend cuts, screens, passes, swings of the ball, inside out actions in order to get that mistake. And usually it occurs sometime 15 to zero. I’m saying 22 to 15, 22 to 13 on the college clock. In that time frame, the defense is at its best. So we try to capitalize. Now that requires tremendous discipline for your team to say, OK, I’m watching games last night, I watch it all the time. These guys come down, they fire shots like, holy crap. It should make them defend and get a better shot. The bad shots that are taken, you know, they make a couple of three pointies in practice and they think, oh, I’m a three point shooter. A knucklehead, you shoot 29 percent from three. Think about when you’re shooting a higher percentage. Well, after the defensive team has made a mistake, then your percentage improves dramatically. We had a kid from New Zealand who thought he was a three point shooter, six, nine kid, he’s a terrific kid and really hard worker, but he’s shooting like 16 percent and he was a big guy for us. And holy Christmas. So I took away his ability to shoot and restricted it. We call giving you an opportunity to shoot the freedom of shoot, a shooting license. You must earn a license to shoot just like driving a car. Stephen Curry had an unrestricted license. He could shoot anywhere he wanted. Some big guys could only shoot top of the key threes. Some big guys could shoot top of the key threes and pick and pop threes. Some wings could only shoot corner threes, wing threes and only after coming off the screen. But this guy from New Zealand, I took away his ability to shoot threes until it was less than 10 seconds on the shot clock. He shot 44 percent in his last year with us because he had that restriction. Now, he didn’t shoot as many threes, but he was lethal from three.
Dan 21:51
Before we get away from it too much, you were about to mention your 5 tenets or 5 principles on offense.
Bob McKillop 21:58
The first one is attack space. The game is a war for space. Attack space to get space. So I shot fake up. What does the defender do? He rises. Now it gives me the space to drive past him. I fake like I’m going to drive. I get the defender down. Then I go. So I’m attacking space to get space. Think about how many times you fake a pass to the post above your head and the defender puts his arms up. Then you throw the bounce pass to the post. It happens all the time. Attack space to get space. The second thing, and this is really something that is hard, hard to teach because of the culture today. See, then catch and see. So if you’re on a court, before you make a catch, you see. You have a panoramic vision of the court. And then when you catch it, you catch and see. If I’m cutting, how can a guy pass me the ball when he’s dribbling? But if I’m seeing, catching and seeing, I could see that cutter. See, catch, see. There are four teammates on the court. Someone’s going to be open or someone’s going to be an outlet. Get in the ball, but you only could do that if you catch and see.People ask me about Stephen a lot. And Stefan has two incredible abilities that very few players today have. He has fast twitch eyes and fast twitch ears. He sees not just where the ball is. He sees where the ball is going to be. Because his eye muscles react so fast. The second thing with his fast twitch ears, he hears everything. He’s in a huddle. He hears. He’s on the court. He hears. For us, the ball is like a spotlight. If you were to unscrew the spotlight, the ceiling in the room you’re in right now and put it in your hand, it would burn your hand. But you’re in a spotlight, but you burn. But if you take that spotlight and you pass it around and as a result of passing around, Patrick gets it and I get it. And all of us are in a spotlight, but no one gets burned. And that’s the way the basketball is. Third one. A lost art in our world today. Help somebody. It’s all about me in a spotlight. No one wants to help. How can you help? Well, you run hard to the front rim. You run hard to the corner. You cut, finish, you cut. You screen. Screening is the only way to help. Running, cutting, faking, posting, attacking space. That’s the way you help somebody. When you help somebody, you help yourself. The fourth is finish your cut and you finish your cut to either the front rim or the three point line, keeping your defender occupied or getting yourself open. And the fifth one is dribble with a purpose. So yes, you can dribble. Well, what’s the purpose? And a dribble with a purpose is to help your teammate get open or to help yourself get open. So those five simple rules, attack space, see, catch and see, help somebody finish your cut and dribble with a purpose. Once you get into your transition offense, that’s our offense. That’s our motion.
Pat 26:08
You mentioned playing at the playground and you talked about when it was windy, then you would adapt the game and you talked about the importance of an offense being adaptable. In the course of a season, how you thought about improving your team’s adaptability, you know, how you prepared them to be adaptable offense?
Bob McKillop 26:25
We went to a five-out offense instead of four-out one-in in transition as an adaption. We ran this thing for 30 years. People are gonna adapt to it and gonna try to shut it out, but then certain segments of the game or certain situations in the game, we’d run a five-out. Nobody goes to the front rim. Everyone stays outside and we initiate with a ball screen in transition. As a result of that, we created two different scenarios for opponents to worry about, but the five rules remain the same no matter what you’re running. And what’s interesting, we also, I’m not a joy sticker. A joy sticker is the guy that calls a play every possession. And he calls a play every possession because he doesn’t trust his players. So as a result of not trusting his players, he has to dictate what is done. He has to joy stick them. I thought as a coach, if a team played joystick basketball against us, that was a home run for us. It’s easy to stop plays. It’s impossible to stop principles. Principles will beat plays every time. So we would think that the team joysticks, that’s playing right into our defensive hands because we could stop that play. I did add some plays, some quick hitters, particularly like when we had Steph, we would call a play every chance we could for him to get the ball in his hands. But I think the combination of our secondary transition four out one in our secondary transition five out and then certain segments of the game running quick hitters, I think that created enough flexibility and adaptability so we could capitalize on a particular play as talents. We could throw the defense off guard, but even with a play, a set play, we would use the five principles. See, everyone teaches how to run a play, but they never teach how to run a play when it gets stopped. What happens when a play gets stopped? Ball screen, ball screen, ball screen, set it up, set it up, makes you want to throw up. But think about the concept against more athletic teams. When we run a set play and it’s screwed by their great talent or athleticism and then we’re going to pull it back out instead of ball screen against an athletic team. No, stay within the flow. That’s where I said earlier about the orchestra leader. He’s got to stay within the flow, the rhythm. You’re going to create the mistake, but all of a sudden you pull it out, the defensive player goes, now I can get myself set up again.
Dan 29:00
Coach, we wanna move on now to a segment on the show we call Start, Sub, or Sit. We appreciate all your thoughts so far. This has been amazing. We’re gonna give you three options around a topic, ask you to start one of those options, sub one, and of course, sit one, and then we’ll discuss your answer from there. So Coach, if you’re ready, we’ll dive into this first Start, Sub, Sit. Okay. So Coach, the first question is, we call this good and small doses. These are three potentially harmful characteristics that a coach might have, but in small doses might actually be useful. And so your start here would be which one you think would be actually the most useful to have as a coach. So option one is stubbornness. Option two is ego. And option three is confrontational. So Start, Sub, Sit, those three options, which one your start would be, is the best to have in small doses as a coach. Stubbornness, ego, or confrontational.
Bob McKillop 30:00
Confrontational.
Dan 30:02
Okay.
Bob McKillop 30:03
and your sub- Stubbornness. s it ego. I think the confrontational aspect is one in which you’re dealing with truth. And there’s pain. Truth is pain. And you gotta sometimes deal with it. And how you say it often times is more important than what you say. Or equally as important as what you say. So if you’re confrontational but you say it the right way.
Dan 30:26
Going back to the situation you mentioned earlier with your big that wanted to shoot threes and you took away that until under 10 or certain spots, you know, that could be for a coach, obviously a confrontational discussion with the player. How did you find the best ways to handle those types of conversations? One on one with film in front of the team, all of the above, how did you handle that?
Bob McKillop 30:49
One on one first with film, with statistics, then working extra with him after practice on a specific threes that I thought he would get and having him get confidence in that. And then going in front of the team with him there saying he’s willing to sacrifice this because he puts the team ahead of himself.
Pat 31:08
When you’re gonna tell the truth or have these tough conversations. And like you mentioned that the how being probably the most important part. So how did you think about delivering when you knew a tough news or gonna take away someone’s ability to shoot?
Bob McKillop 31:23
Well, take away someone’s ability to start. That was always a tough conversation, but you need to frame it in the concept that this is a team and the team is gonna prosper from this. And I think you can do it. Pat, I love the way you shoot, but you could help our team a lot better, Pat, if you made the defense make a mistake and you will make the defense make a mistake and you will be able to shoot as a result of having that opening. And that will help you and you help the team. When you help somebody, you help yourself. When the banner hangs in the rafter, you want a piece of that banner.
Dan 31:58
Coach, you subbed stubbornness and for you as a coach over the years, we’ve talked about your ability to be adaptable and adapt to the game, but also in small doses where you felt being stubborn on certain things was helpful and potentially what those things were that you were stubborn on as a coach.
Bob McKillop 32:17
Well, catch and see. One of the rules. I was very stubborn about that. Or sacrifice equals reward. Run to the front rim. But coach, I’m not getting the ball. I run there every time and the guy doesn’t see me. I said, yeah, but he doesn’t see you, but he sees the guy in the corner, and he doesn’t see you because you’re covered. And the guy in the corner is uncovered because his man, that winged defender who sprinted back, now was worried about you at the front rim. So it was that kind of stubbornness that you could really show on film. And I’m a great believer in images. Imagination is greater than knowledge. Images really reinforce what you believe in and could actually validate and affirm your stubbornness.
Pat 33:03
What the longevity of the career you had looking at stubbornness is there one thing early in your coaching career you were stubborn on that. By the end of it not that you did a one eighty but it really kind of moved away or that wasn’t as important as you thought it was when you first started out.
Bob McKillop 33:19
Yeah, it’s really a general response. It’s not a technical response. I had young assistants and believers in analytics, and I had absolutely no belief in analytics. I was a gut guy. You can show me any analytic you want about Fallon rather than give up a three-point shot. I eventually eliminated that stubbornness and not fully embraced analytics, but gave it a proper forum in our game planning that it was part of it, and I agreed to it. That was a really difficult stretch for me.
Dan 33:53
Why did you end up changing? What did you end up seeing in them? That was helpful.
Bob McKillop 33:57
Because I trusted the assistant coaches. And by me showing my trust in them, I made them better assistant coaches. They could game plan based upon analytics. And if I was willing to buy into parts of that, it meant that, okay, it’s your game plan, I’m believing in you.
Dan 34:16
And coach, were there any analytics from the offensive side that at the end of your career you did buy into that helped you felt like teach parts of your offense?
Bob McKillop 34:25
Well, my initial idea was not so much the analytics, but the timing frame of one to seven seconds and then maybe 15, 13 down to zero. A lot of teams, they don’t score and they get 10 seconds on a shot clock. They pull it out, run a pick and roll. Well, I refuse to do that, refused. And that was one analytic that I was going to use to validate my belief. So we stayed with our offense. We stay with the flow. We stay with the rhythm. And it was a couple of years. We were close to the top of the country with finishing when the clock’s below 10. So I think that that was one case where I was really stubborn, despite the fact that I was willing to accept analytics. I was never going to go into that ballpark of set it up and set a ball screen on the 10 seconds.
Pat 35:13
within that conversation you said, learning to trust your assistants. I’ve heard you talk on this before, but also learning to trust yourself and kind of like your journey or the learning curve of learning to trust yourself.
Bob McKillop 35:26
We all have opinions, we all have beliefs, and we all think we’re right. And everyone should sweep in front of their own door and the world would be a clean place. So we first must coach ourselves before we can coach a staff or coach a team. Coach yourself first. You become the model of trust. You become the model of that. And as a result, then you will build trust. That to me is one of the cardinal rules of life is you must model whatever you are teaching in your own life.
Pat 37:12
All right, coach, we’re going to move on to the second start subset for you. And this one we’ve called imperfect practices. So we’re going to give you three imperfect practice situations that arise during a course of a season and start sub sit, which one was the most challenging for you to think about and how you still accomplish a good practice. So the first situation is when you have less than 10 players in a practice, or you’re going to need managers to make up the 10 and get to a good number. Option two is when multiple key guys are out of the practice. And then option three is the days where it’s a short week or you’re in between, you know, the days off, but when you have to balance rest and recovery in a practice setting.
Bob McKillop 38:01
All of those circumstances require coaching, leading. I would say the third one would be sit. You have to balance. I had a hard time doing that. I had a hard time cutting back. And the first concept of having to use managers, I thought that just led to creativity. And again, I had to coach myself. So I’d start that one. That just required me to be more creative in our practice planning. And let me tell you, we were really meticulous, detailed and passionate about our practice planning. I would spend two to three hours at night at home, developing the practice plan, go in the next day, spend maybe an hour in the morning just reviewing it, then meeting with the staff from 11 to 12 and assigning who had responsibilities. So practice planning for us, that was a joy. So the concept of having managers in there was never a problem. The sub would be when you have guys that are not practicing because, and we did this in a lot of stages of my career, and we did this with the advice of my young assistants, we needed to rest those guys. And I was always of the belief that hard work is hard work. And I wondered what message I was sending to the entire team if I’m giving some guys a free pass that day in practice. And that was one thing I had to be convinced about. So all three wonderful experiences that I had and ones that they’re part of coaching. That’s where you have to coach yourself through those. You know, as I’ve gone into retirement, you know one thing that I really miss, and this is maybe not something you wanna brag about, but when we lost the game, I was like miserable. I mean, you know, you guys know that experience. However, the next day I would wake up almost like rejuvenated. Wow, this is a chance for us to get better. This is a chance for us to establish some new strategies. This is a chance for us to attack what’s in front of us. I miss that hunger to bounce back off the mat. That was something that just drove me. You know, you gotta be in the center ring swinging, you’re gonna get knocked to the ropes, you’re gonna get knocked to the mat, but you gotta get back in the center of the ring. I don’t miss the losing, but I miss that planning to get back off the mat and start swinging again. Coach.
Pat 40:22
You talked about practice planning and how meticulous you were. What was important to you when planning a practice? Like certain elements you wanted to hit on or structure, what was your thought process behind putting together a practice plan?
Bob McKillop 40:35
had to be enjoyable for the team and hard work is never enjoyable, so have to construct it in a way in which our players felt they were enjoying it and getting better because of their activities. So the sale of what we were doing and why we were doing it was really important. A guy screwed up, making him run was like the last thing I’d do. Taking him off the court and not letting him practice was I thought a pain and I made sure the players understood that it’s painful. You’re being denied the opportunity to get better. It’s incredible how they would take that the way it was said to them and use that as a motivation to get better. We had four objectives every day in practice, in a film session, in a video session, in a one-on-one session, in individual instruction. One, get better. Two, play to win, be confident, believe, let go. Three, fight to win every possession. Is the missed shot at the buzzer that cost us the game or is the lack of that box out at the 10-minute mark that led to an offensive rebound and a putback? Is that what cost us the game? Fight to win every possession and the fourth thing was to have fun and we tried to incorporate those four objectives in every gathering of our team or individual player every day and we hammered them home.
Dan 41:59
You talk about how much time you spent on planning the practice, what it looked like for you and your staff after practice to know whether or what you were trying to accomplish was done, worked, reflection for the next day. Did you put time into after practice as well?
Bob McKillop 42:16
It’s a great question because retrospectively I said to myself, maybe we should have done more of that. We never regrouped as a staff and analyzed what went on in practice. Our assistant coaches, we filmed practice and they would watch it, and they’d come back with thoughts that next morning in the meeting. I live right across the street from campus and I walked out of the arena and I’d come home and I would sit at the dining room table and I knew that I probably drove my wife crazy for so many years because I’m thinking about the pick and roll that we didn’t defend right or I’m thinking about the lack of a box out or that drill was too good. I analyzed the practice so when I created the practice for the next day, I would use the format of that day’s practice as the framework for how we’re going to develop the next practice. I was a constant learner. I was willing to learn and adapt and see what I did wrong and not afraid to admit that. I often thought that the review of that practice by me each evening in my home personally, going through that practice plan and what we didn’t include, what went wrong and how as we prepare this next practice, how all of that could impact the preparation. That was critical, but I never involved the assistance in that process and maybe I would now.
Pat 43:34
Coach tying it all together with this practice planning conversation when it was a practice that you needed to give your guys rest and recover what changed about how you plan that practice if any or I guess what you consider then knowing that okay this is a practice that I have to be mindful of not over taxing my players
Bob McKillop 43:54
I believe what what changed was more the concept of me beating myself. So I didn’t have to concern myself with surrender. I wanted to still attack, but not surrender in the process. So I would refine the drills to maybe not hit flesh. We hit flesh every day. And this was maybe a daily wooden hit flesh or go up and down the court, or number of repetitions or length of the time, or the creation of some drills that were competitive, but really kind of humorous, competitive. Big shooting against the guards, three point shooting contest, something like that. Try to create and craft something that could show progress and still be in the attack mode, but not surrender.
Pat 44:42
You mentioned maybe decreasing the number of reps. When it was a normal practice, did you think about in a drill, if it’s like a five on five drill, thinking about the number of reps or the length, or was it until you accomplish what you wanted before you moved on?
Bob McKillop 44:58
always a conflict because sometimes we never accomplished it. One more rep, one more rep. You’re constantly challenged by that where what I learned as I got older was that, well, dummy create a different drill than the one you use, that the drill is not the magic potion, it’s the actual technique and the execution of it that’s the potion. How can you get that to be executed the right way?
Dan 45:26
Coach, you’re off the start, sub, or sit hot seat. Thanks for playing that game with us. That was a lot of fun. Coach, we’ve got a final question for you to close the show, but before we do, thank you so much again for coming on and being so thorough. This was awesome. So we appreciate your time today.
Bob McKillop 45:39
Oh, well, I’m delighted to talk basketball and thank you for giving me the platform and thank you for giving everyone out there an opportunity to hear us.
Dan 45:48
Appreciate that. Thanks, Coach.
Dan 45:50
Coach, our last question that we ask all the guests is, what’s the best investment that you’ve made in your career as a coach?
Bob McKillop 45:58
The investment in self-introspection, in which I analyzed myself, what kind of person was I, what kind of coach was I, what kind of leader was I, and in the process, refining myself, constantly refining what I did. I think you could look at some more tangible aspects of my investment.
Going to Europe was a tremendous investment for me. You know, and else this is kind of interesting. I loved basketball camp. We would have three weeks of sold-out basketball camp every summer. And I didn’t just show up on registration day and then show up again on awards day. I was there hands-on, fully engaged, and leading a lecture every day, leading stations. It was an opportunity for me to impact 250 kids every week. How many times in your life can you impact 250 kids who are going to be attentive if you present it the right way? And then 10, 15, 20, 30 years later, they say, I remember you taught us this at camp. Not necessarily how to shoot, but a lesson of life. Only when I learned that camp was an opportunity to impact lives did I embrace camp. I just embraced it. It was a great time for me. And it became that same way with coaching. It wasn’t about me climbing a corporate ladder and getting to the ACC or Big East or Madison Square Garden with the Knicks. It was me doing the best I could to impact lives. I would have to say that the investment of learning who I was and refining who I was was probably the greatest one I made.
Dan 47:45
All right Pat, it’s always a pleasure having coaches on and when you get a chance to have someone like Coach McKillop Obviously a legendary figure. Yeah, it was just a pleasure having him on an honor that he came on the show and he shared So much so we got a lot to dive into here. Yeah
Pat 48:00
I echo your sentiment and I said it to you before we started recording the clearest thing that came Well, hopefully that’ll come across when we listen to this episode is of course what he teaches his offense and getting into his philosophy But it really came across how he teaches like just the teacher he is lifelong teacher And I thought it was just I mean we’ll start to dive into it But just his sayings how he thought about the game the details But really how he taught it and you just see then why he’s successful or has been successful as a coach Absolutely, Dan without further ado then let’s kick it off I’ll throw it to you for the first takeaway here with Coach McKilliop.
Dan 48:38
So, so much in that first bucket, I mean, just so much. The one thing I highlighted and just kind of think a lot of things centered around in the beginning, especially, was his quote that the game is a war for space. And it just reminded me of numerous conversations we’ve had with numerous coaches. I mean, that’s something that I know a lot of the great offensive minds and defensive minds think about all the time. Thinking back to the great Noah LaRoche podcast, who is now with Memphis Grizzlies, all about attacking space and taking space, that podcast. But I think a lot of that first part I like centered around his thoughts on spacing, his thoughts on teaching how to attack the space. And then, of course, he got into all his principles and helping someone and finishing cuts and drilling purpose and see, then catch and see, reading my scribble. And I think that stood out because obviously then everything he’s taught and thinks about offensively starts from there. And then he had all these nice nuggets about playing out of spacing and why it’s so important and why it’s important to help create it and help others. And I think just like a background base jumping off point to understanding what he did as a coach starts with that quote to me.
Pat 49:57
Absolutley and like you said, when he went through like his five principles, then to me it started to crystallize then just how, of course, he used those to teach the motion offense and how just teaching the reads, I thought he really thorough and kind of when we got into the conversation on cutting and one of his sayings being back cut, don’t beg. And I go back to just his master, his craft of teaching, like it all whittled back down to his five principles, he could always get it back there and then from there you just kind of then build up how you read, how the motion continues to flow because it’s always playing off of these five principles. And I think too, what helps with these read-based offense is when you have a clear set of kind of these defined principle, you can just keep going back to them as to why, okay, why did the offense break down here? Well, you didn’t see, or you wasted your dribble, or yeah, did you help somebody by this cut and not cutting out? Like you said, he had 30 years to kind of perfect it and sharing it with us today. And the roadmap he used to build the offense really crystallized nicely. And then I think too, when he talked about his full court offense and his transition offense, that was another in our prep we wanted to try to hit on and get to talking about how they spaced, but specifically the interactions between the trailer and the point guard in terms of the point guard being in the lane and then playing brush cuts off the trailer. I really liked that conversation as well when we kind of got technical with his offense and kind of diving into the nuts and bolts of it.
Dan 51:24
Yeah. And that was something, it was both a highlight and something I probably could have gone deeper on. I mean, just a, not a miss by Coach McKillop, but one of my early ones of, we highlighted some of that stuff with Swarthmore’s offense earlier with that too big in transition and how the point guard is playing that pocket and kind of play out the rub screen and stuff, but probably could have gone a lot, lot, lot deeper with him. I’m sure he could have gone on as well. Then we touched on it briefly, which was really good. So give you that. The other thing I just found interesting and it would have been fun to spend time on, he talked in very beginning about how he thought about offensive execution and core principles. And he went back to when he was a kid growing up and when they would have to take the snow off the court or when it was windy and it’s like the original CLA, right? Instead of us giving strengths in practice, it’s like, yeah, hey, there’s snow on the court, so maybe don’t shoot threes. I found that just so true. And we talked a lot, coaches talk a lot about his kids just not playing enough, that type of stuff and how you always look for players that can dribble, pass and shoot just simple and being adaptable. And I just kind of liked that opening story he had about that and how he kind of looked at, kind of set up the tone for how he looked at trying to find players that can do multiple things and be adaptable. And just thought that was a nice nugget there.
Pat 52:46
Yeah. And I think it’s a conversation we’ve had the last couple of times on our recaps about adaptability. I’m with you too. I love that example and how it stuck in his mind too when he became a coach. And at the end of the bucket, when we started talking about a little bit the adaptability, and he talked about principles beat plays, and it’s something that really stuck out to me. And again, harpening back to his five principles, but how he thought about the adaptability and the importance of it. Because once he was kind of joystick, as he said, then you can become scoutable, defendable, and kind of working with these principles to build the adaptability and truly make your offense, they unguardable or unscoutable.
Dan 53:25
That exact topic that you just mentioned, principles over plays and things like that. As a coach, I think that’s an interesting line that everyone has. It’s a little different. It’s a little different per team. It’s a little different time of your life when you’re coaching, because I think we would all love to just have a team that just played off principles and was really good. But he mentioned too, like if you don’t trust your players or they’re young, that’s a fascinating distinction where you fall on that. If it’s a 100% scale, 50-50, 70-30, and I think it changes. And I think that’s always kind of a interesting topic and we would all love to be 100% principles. And like I said, but it’s not the reality or like he even said, you get a Steph Curry, it walks through your door for three years. And then he’s like, yeah, well, maybe I’m gonna draw a couple more things up to get him the ball.
Pat 54:18
You know, maybe I’ll send this thought and then kick it to you for the second takeaway. Maybe it bleeds into it, but I think kind of along that line, a lot of it plays into developing trust in yourself as a coach. Maybe you believe in the principles, but as an early coach and you kind of want to do well yourself and just not trusting your players, not willing to trust your players or give them the freedom that I think there’s a bigger reward behind playing through principles, but there’s also probably a bigger learning curve in playing through principles in terms of just the mistakes and the sloppiness that it’s going to require versus you just telling them what to do and joysticking them. Then maybe later down the road, it can backfire, maybe not, but I think that’s also the battle with like a coach, just learning a young coach or just learning to trust yourself as well and kind of give up that control.
Dan 55:06
So with that being said, and we tiptoed into it there a second ago, but let’s kick it to you on takeaway number two.
Pat 55:14
Yeah. Takeaway number two, I’ll go to my start subset, kind of a conversation. We continued off of coach Mike Miller talking about being a short-handed in practice and we liked the topic. So we wanted to ask coach McKillop today.So my takeaway from that start subset clearly was then the conversation we had around practice planning and just how methodical meticulous and what he thought about basically was working off of, I want an enjoyable and we need to work hard. Then he shared his four principles. I had get better, play to win, win every possession and have fun. So I think it’s always a fun conversation. Of course, as we all know, practice planning is key and how you put together a good practice, how you think about what you need to accomplish stuff. And I think it is a real delicate balance. It has to be enjoyable on some level for them to compete and play at the intensity to get stuff done and it can’t be in such a monotonous kind of rinse repeat.
Dan 56:11
This was like a sneaky conversation that was also about culture wrapped in a question about practice planning because I think with his four objectives in there and then how much time he spent and all that, you did get a sense of like the culture of his programs over the years and what was important. And I really liked that though we were talking about practice planning and the first bucket we were talking about, you know, offense and efficiency and all that, you know, his five tenets of offense, these four objectives. Over the years as those get crystallized and you can keep pounding those things day in day out, whether you sit through film or player development and practice playing, it just becomes what became the Davidson way. And I thought that was interesting blanket over everything.
Another miss for me is we could have gone deeper on the four objectives and how he did that day in day out much deeper, it could be a whole other podcast, I think just going down that rabbit hole. And then I’ll quickly flip to the other interesting part of the practice planning was I asked him about what he did afterwards and he kind of reflected on maybe that was something looking back he would have done differently or with the staff and, you know, we’ve all done the thing he was talking about where you go home and you’re sitting at a kitchen table and your wife or significant other comes around the corner and you just look like you’re staring at a ghost staring off into the distance about things. Yeah, but I thought that was an interesting just reflection from him on what’s your we talked with Brittany Loney a little bit ago about after action reviews, after games, after practices and what staffs can do and I just thought that was an interesting reflection from him on how he reflected about the practice and then got ready for the next day.
Pat 57:52
Yeah. And my last takeaway within this conversation was when we briefly at the end touched on just number of repetitions within a drill, whether it’s rep-based, time-based or accomplished. And I thought he raised a really good point, just if you’re having trouble accomplishing what you want out of the drill, maybe start looking at the drill. Again, looking at what you can control as a coach. And yeah, I thought that was a good lens to look at it through. Maybe it’s not that the guys were messing up, it’s that the drill you put them in really wasn’t tailored to get the goal accomplished.
Dan 58:23
Yeah, maybe you need to go outside and practice outside or throw some ice on the court. Yeah
Pat 58:27
Yeah, getting like some wind blowers or the big fans. Yeah. All right, Dan, given a move in here, our last takeaway, I’ll throw it back to you. Yeah.
Dan 58:36
I’m going to cheat here because I want to give a quick thing to the stubbornness that he talked about in the analytics. I thought that was just an interesting point where he wasn’t an analytics guy and then trusting his assistants. I thought that was good. My last takeaway was in his best investment answer. And particularly, I thought when he talked about summer camps and going back to making an impact on people, and I thought it was a really well said way to sum up, I know who he was in his career, which was impacting young people. And I thought that just a good reminder for all of us that, as we climb levels and promotions and different things that going back to the heart of all this, which is impacting young people. And he talked about still wanting to be on the court with young kids in the summer camp. I like to hear him talk about that because I think it summed up who he was as a coach and why he was ultimately so successful is because he probably taught close outs and jump stops to 10 year olds the same way he did to Steph Curry.
Pat 59:39
He was a teacher who happened to coach basketball.
Dan 59:42
Yeah. So I’ll go back to why we all do it. And it was a nice wrap up, I think, of the whole thing and some eyes who he was. So, Pat, I gave a couple of kind of misses throughout. Anything else you could have gone deeper on.
Pat 59:56
Yeah, I think one thing that stood out was going back to the start-sub-sit on practice scenarios. He mentioned, I believe it was when, you know, less than 10 guys are having managers in practice, just it forced them to be creative. And I wish I had followed up just on practice, creativity, or kind of in these difficult situations, just how we thought about being creative to still maximize the practice.
Dan 01:00:18
I loved his answer right away though, that he said all of those things required leadership and creativity. You could tell he didn’t look at it like a, oh, woe is me. He’s just like, okay, how do I lead and teach through this? And I’m sure he had these situations thousands of times in his career and it didn’t faze him. I got the same impression now. Good stuff. Well, once again, we thank Coach McKillop for coming on. It was a terrific conversation today. Thank you everybody for listening and we’ll see you next time.