ISO Analytics, Building Decision Makers, and Elite Communication Habits
What actually decides late-clock possessions? And why do most teams break down when it matters most?
Cavs Associate Head Coach Johnnie Bryant joins the show to unpack how elite teams think about decision-making, adaptability, and communication at the highest level.
“The players really teach the coaches… you just create the environment and let them find the solution.”
We start with constraint-based coaching and ecological design—how creating the right environments allows players to discover solutions, build instincts, and shape your system in real time.
Defensively, Bryant flips the script: great teams don’t rely on perfect execution—they prepare for when things go wrong. The edge comes from solving breakdowns, rotations, and chaos better than your opponent.
In Start, Sub, or Sit, Bryant identifies off-the-dribble shooting as the most dangerous variable in isolation—because it forces defenses into difficult tradeoffs: stay home, force direction, or commit to a trap.
Then, we close on culture—where Bryant explains why vulnerability is the hardest skill to build, and why without it, communication under pressure will always break down.
What You’ll Learn
- The one stat that should drive every late-clock ISO decision
- How NBA staffs use constraints to build decision-makers, not robots
- Why most teams fail at communication—and how to fix it
Key Moments
- 2:30 – Why constraints create better players
- 4:30 – Letting players shape your system
- 9:30 – Reading spacing vs forcing structure
- 13:20 – Defending chaos, not perfection
- 21:45 – Start, Sub, or Sit: ISO decisions
- 22:00 – The #1 ISO metric
- 23:30 – When to trap vs stay home
- 25:00 – The risk behind every double team
- 29:10 – Why teams struggle to communicate
- 33:00 – Training communication in practice
- 36:45 – Coaching personalities that actually stick
Transcript
Johnnie Bryant 00:00
What I’ve done over the years is any time a player come by the bench and be like, such and such need to do X, Y, and Z, I’d be like, tell them. Or in a timeout, I’ll grab both of them. Hey, tell me what you just told me. Just force them to communicate. And then next thing you know, they start having another dialogue and that’s what you want. That’s the challenge.
And there’s been times as a coach for me where I’ve wanted to say something to a player and to force the communication between the players. I say, hey, Dan, go tell Pat, you know, X, Y, and Z. Tell them I said it. All you’re trying to do is just create that environment to where they communicate with each other.
Dan Krikorian 00:44
Hi, I’m Dan Krikorian and welcome to Slapping Glass, exploring basketball’s best ideas, strategies, and coaches from around the world. Today we’re excited to welcome Cleveland Cavaliers Associate Head Coach, Jonny Bryan. Coach Bryan is here today to discuss building defensive and offensive adaptability through practice design, flexible cutting principles, and we talk late game isolation analytics, hitting or doubling directions on great ball handlers, and communicating under pressure during the always fun start, sub, or sit.
Here’s the problem, there is a lot of smart basketball content, there’s also a lot of basketball content. Slapping Glass Plus exists to separate those two things. It’s a curated space for curious coaches with film breakdowns, deep dives, and no searching, no sorting, no wondering that this is worth your time. We do the studying, you do the coaching. If you want to keep learning without turning it into a side job, Slapping Glass Plus is for you. Join the thousands of coaches from around the world who have made the investment SG Plus at SlappingGlass.com today. And now, please enjoy our conversation with Coach Jonny Bryan.
Coach, we wanted to start with this, and it’s something that has gained traction kind of in all sports, but I know in basketball specifically as well. And that’s ecological design, the CLA, straight lead approach, those kinds of things. And we wanted to take it from maybe a little different angle than it’s been talked about before. And that’s more from a team schematic perspective. And it’s had a lot when it comes to player development and how people develop skills and all those kinds of things. But now when you want to take that into more of a team approach and how you play and cut and move and have triggers and retriggers, all that kind of stuff, where you’ve seen that be successful, how you use it, and just your overall thoughts on that.
Johnnie Bryant 02:57
You know, like you said, obviously it’s an individual space, but when you bring it to the team, you really have to focus on the intention of what you want to accomplish. So for example, if you want to work on off-ball screening, you could do a small-sided game and say you only can score off off-ball screen. So now the constraint is, instead of playing pick and roll or dribble handoff, it’s one of those things where you got to get in a situation where it’s off-ball screening or, you know, on the defensive side, hey, if you force the defense to take a certain shot, whatever, the scoring system, you know, if it’s a deflection, you get bonus points. So you basically score it to focus on what you want to emphasize.
And then obviously once the game starts, now everything is live, right? So there’s so much to bring into the CLA space, you know, whether you’re doing a breakdown drill and there’s no dribbles. And so now cutting, if you want to talk about cutting, you know, screening, there’s different ways you can kind of quote unquote, skin the cat, but really what you try to do is find ways for the players to find their own solutions. And then, you know, you talk about it at the end and then obviously it accelerates their development.
Dan Krikorian 04:04
Coach, what’s the general process for the staff when they’re seen as players are coming up with sort of their natural solutions to some of the problems and things like that that the CLA brings up in these drills to then go, okay, well, this is something we’re going to do potentially in a game, or this is an action that we really like to play out of? What’s kind of like the process of watching it unfold in a drill to then maybe implementing into an overall system?
Johnnie Bryant 04:31
I think at the end of the day, the players really teach the coaches anyway. And we just start, hey, you did this last time, do this again, right?
You know, if you look back from the start of basketball, when you’re talking about layups, right, jump off your inside foot, right hand layup, that’s your left leg, right? If you jump off your inside foot, right leg for your left hand layup, right? And then all of a sudden, now Steve Nash is doing these goofy foot finishes, and now everyone starts to teach it. And he found a solution because he was smaller, and he had to get the ball up quicker. So when you go through these situations, and you put the players in these situations where they have to find solutions, then it’s like, okay, now they’re giving us information, as opposed to say, hey, you’re going to be in this situation, look for this, this, this, this, this, it may be another option out there that we haven’t seen or explored, but because the constraint is whatever it may be for the emphasis of that drill, now you find another solution.
Patrick Carney 05:28
How much do you think about the defense and maybe controlling the defense or limiting the defense to help the constraint if we’re trying to teach some sort of offensive concept or an offensive solution?
Johnnie Bryant 05:40
the thing, right? So, you know, let’s just say if you want to attack switching, it’s like, hey, we’re attacking switching. And now the defense knows they’re switching everything, whether it’s, you know, on ball, pick and roll or off ball, where it’s off ball screening. And then now the offense knows, hey, they’re switching, now we have the fine solutions.
And then the reverse is true, where it’s like, hey, we want to emphasize whatever we want defensively, whether it’s, you know, deflections and activity or whatever the case may be. And now you have a scoring system in place to where, hey, if you do this, you get an extra point. So now you’re encouraging whatever principles that you want to emphasize to the group. And then like I said earlier, once the game start, hopefully everything you’ve worked on and emphasize, you know, it carries over.
Dan Krikorian 06:29
I wonder at your level, it’s such a long season. You’ve got such great players you’re working with all the time. And I guess sort of the balance or the slider of does every drill need a decision? Does every drill need them to have a constraint versus a player comes in, hey, I just want to kind of block training. I just want to shoot 20 jumpers and feel good before the game versus, hey, I don’t want to have to read a close at every time. I mean, I’m sure you get a little bit of that here and there with such a long season.
And I guess as a staff or yourself, I love how you think about balancing block repetition versus making decisions all the time.
Johnnie Bryant 07:04
It’s one of those things where the players, especially successful players, you know, they’re like, hey, this is kind of my routine. And then you just kind of weave it in there. And it may be a situation where it’s like, hey, you know what, we’re going to get these shots up, but you can’t shoot the same shot twice. I don’t care what shot you shoot, doesn’t matter.
And then as a coach, you can manufacture it a little bit where you may throw the ball to where the player has to move. It may be high, it may be low. So you’re still working on the variability. And it’s not the traditional block training to give them the ball to the seams and they’re getting the reps. Or, you know, for example, what I’ve done in the past, I may have a big ball and then have a regular sized ball. So now they’re shooting with the oversized ball, one rep and then the next rep, they have a regular sized basketball, right? So you’re creating a variability that way. And that’s just a way to just kind of keep them engaged.
Patrick Carney 07:57
Coach, going back to the team tactics, if I can get a little specific, we’re seeing a lot in Europe and we know you guys are doing a well, like that slide cutting put in the corner, drifting the 45. And with something like that, you know, when you have like a concept you want to implement, how does it work within this framework of ecological design work?
Is it a rule just that you just got to drill with the guys or how do you build situations for them to recognize and get true recognition of, OK, now that’s where I got to cut. That’s where that guy’s got to drift.
Johnnie Bryant 08:28
Yeah, you know, that comes down and with film breakdowns, you know, with us, it’s hard to quote unquote practice, you know, you’re kind of teaching spacing in the game of basketball, the spacing is always changing. And you want to open up space for guys to attack.
And then, you know, depending on where the ball goes on the floor, the geography of the spacing changes, right. So, you know, it’s a lot of teaching, you drill, hey, if this happened, you do this. And if this happened, you do this. And then once you kind of feel that foundation now, it’s like, okay, now read what’s going on. And then now that’s when they start to recognize a little bit quicker.
Dan Krikorian 09:02
staying on the cutting concept for a second. I think that’s where just personally, and I know talking a lot of coaches, that’s where the CLA stuff has been really helpful to sort of just teach recognition of spaces and when to cut and all that.
As the season wears on and everybody’s got film of everybody and those sort of tendencies of what they like to do, where in-game variability starts to take place for you guys of, okay, here’s how we like to normally have our backside cutting, but then also personnel-based versus different types of backside actions, whether those are reads or just straight rules that you start to implement as the season goes on.
Johnnie Bryant 09:36
It’s a little bit of everything, right? You go into a game, you have a game plan, hey, we want to do this, this is what we’re going to do philosophically, but then all of a sudden the team adjust, and now you have to adjust, right?
So you have certain teams in the NBA where their job is literally to protect the paint. Now, if you do cut, you’re cutting into their space, so there’s really no opening, or you may get a team that for whatever reason, if they are protecting the paint, the play is on the perimeter, it’s not in the interior, right? So now you may have to hold spacing, or you may have a team that they’re more aggressive on the pick and roll, so now they’re blitzing, and you don’t want to go away from the ball, you got to have three outlets. So, you know, within the scouting, it’s like, hey, tonight, we may have to do this a little bit more, or because they’re doing whatever coverage and scheme, now we have to make those adjustments, and sometimes it takes a couple quarters, and that’s where you look at the halftime edits and say, hey, you know, we got to make sure we’re doing X, Y, and Z. Sometimes it may not get to halftime, you know, we have iPads on the bench, and we’re having that dialogue, and we’re constantly giving the players feedback so they can recognize the situations in-game.
Dan Krikorian 10:44
Coach, since you started your career as a player and a coach and now to where you are, where you started to I guess make the shift or the change to thinking the CLA ecological design was going to be something that you believed in and dove into like where you saw working while you’re interested in it because it’s something that wasn’t probably around when we’re all playing couple decades ago.
Johnnie Bryant 11:04
Well, honestly, in my training over the years, I didn’t have a name for it, if you will. Obviously, you have some block training stuff, but there’s an element of CLA that I’ll incorporate, that I’ve always incorporated with the players, and it was just the way I was taught as far as implementing certain things and now all of a sudden, it has a name, so it’s a little different.
Now, it’s one of those things where it’s easier to trick the player and make it a little bit more fun and lively. And again, there’s a gap, you gotta bridge the gap between these guys when you’re looking at a player that for whatever reason, for example, so when I used to train Paul Mills back in the day, I used to only count swishes, so you gotta make X amount of swishes, so that’s a constraint, or you make X amount of shots and then you gotta make three in a row to get out. It was a lot of variability in there, or we’re doing ball handling, we gotta weigh the basketball, just different things where it’s a little different, the ultimate, quote unquote, CLA that I’ve done with players just over time is just the physical holding, grabbing, have to make decisions and doing certain things when you’re fatigued because that’s another component that a lot of people miss, the actual physical hand-in-the-hand combat. And that’s why I pride myself on being able to still move around with the guys so they can get real live reads as opposed of just kind of going through the motion and they kind of have their NBA pace of working out, right? For me now, where the game is going, it’s like, okay, the CLA for me, it creates an environment where it’s fun, you get creative, you get innovative and then next thing you know, those days when guys are kind of tired and they don’t wanna work out, you make it fun and they feel like they’ve gotten better.
Patrick Carney 12:48
My last question is kind of flipping to defensive development and CLA ecological, whatever you want to call it. But I think a large part of like successful defense is high end defense.
There’s like understanding drives and appropriate helps and how you guys as a staff or yourself think about maybe ways to teach and help your defense within your base whenever there’s a breakdown or a drive. Like understanding was help needed, was this over help and kind of building an adaptable defense in a training session. That’s the tough part.
Johnnie Bryant 13:21
right? Because people don’t understand the game happens so fast. You know, these players, they’re so elite at making reads and making decisions on offense and in defense hand. So defensively, if it’s a penetrating drive and it’s vertical now, you know, we’re in rotations. And, you know, it’s one of those things where we got to cover the basketball and we got to protect the basket, right?
And then the whole premise for us and just in general, you have to guard the basketball one-on-one. If you’re good at the point of attack, you don’t have to worry about the rotations. Now, when there is a breakdown, then there’s rules in the system in place to where we know the rotations, you know, the bottom weak side of pullover or maybe a situation if they’re beat, we may have to send whoever’s closest to the ball to stop the ball and then we just kind of kick out, right? So it’s one of those things where the game, because it’s not going to be perfect, you can’t script everything, but try to manufacture the breakdown. So for me, I’m always thinking like, okay, yeah, this is great. But if this happened, what is the what else? What’s the what’s next? Because in the perfect world, yeah, we’re supposed to keep the pick and roll on the side and we’re supposed to, you know, have high hands and the clinic, it’s like, okay, now that guard gets downhill, the big goes to help the guy that was on the ball. What is he supposed to do? He stopped playing? Like, no, he has to fall into the big legs and keep him off the glass, or he may peel, we may get another person on that body, he goes to the perimeter. It’s those situations, for me, that I kind of focus on as opposed to just like the cookie cutter, hey, we didn’t keep the ball on the sideline. Well, if the ball does get to the middle, what are we doing then? It’s the emergency situations that I try to look at as opposed to we watch a film, oh, well, this should never happen. Well, the ball got to the middle or the ball got wherever it’s supposed to get to. And it’s like, well, we’re supposed to stop playing? Like, no, we need to know, you know, the house is on fire. How are we getting out? How are we putting the fire out?
Patrick Carney 15:19
Yeah, absolutely, coach. And I like if I can kind of follow up on that and think about how to ways to manufacture this decision.
I think everyone talks about like these scramble drills. But with the scramble drills, a lot of them is, you know, it’s a blow by so you know, the help has to come. But how you think about maybe manufacturing realistic, but drives were unpredictable drives where maybe he is getting middle, maybe he’s getting completely blown by baseline, maybe he’s able to level it off. And this is where the appropriate help come in. How do you think about manufacturing starts that may or may not need to be rotate like emergency rotations versus fanning out and reading drives.
Johnnie Bryant 15:57
The game really kind of tells you, right? So you may see it on film and then all of a sudden you try to manufacture it if you can. But then it’s one of those things where, you know, you may create a situation where it’s like, it’s so random and it happens so fast. And it’s like, hey, this was supposed to happen and you can kind of teach in those moments.
But again, that’s why it’s so important on the basketball. If you can be good on the basketball and then you have your help, where it’s supposed to be, hopefully the breakdowns doesn’t occur often, right? But there’s times where it’s like, hey, the ball’s getting in the paint and, you know, we’re looking at the help side defense. And it’s like, you know what? Looking at the film and such and such, like he’s getting blown by and like, and there’s nothing any help defense can do because it’s a straight line drive. Now we’re in rotations. And sometimes the drives happen so fast that you can’t even get anybody over there just because it happens so quickly, right? So that’s the beauty of film to where you can look and it’s like, okay, well, the breakdown started here. Why did the breakdown start there? Well, you’re guarding the basketball and your bottom foot is dropped. So now you’re creating an angle to where it’s a straight line drive as opposed to being a little bit more square to where now he drives, you can send him to the help. Now, of course, we want to have the weak side there to protect the rim, but again, sometimes it may be a weak side action that essentially kind of occupied a defender. And next thing you know, you know, the ball’s in the basket, right? So you’re not going to be perfect on every possession. You just want to try to limit those as much as you can.
Patrick Carney 17:26
If we look at how you prefer to rotate, if there’s like a middle drive, is it the earliest guy peel switch versus if it’s a baseline drive, are you more than let’s rotate the guy at the rim, you know, the MiG over, I guess how a middle penetration versus a baseline penetration may or may not change how you guys like to rotate.
Johnnie Bryant 17:45
let’s just talk about the situation that you brought up as far as the guys, you know, cutting out of the corner, sliding from the 45 to the corner. Well, that’s one of those things where because that movement happens, now, if you have a team that wants to help with the guy that was in the 45, if he stays on the ball, it’s a corner three. So now it’s a situation where the ball gets middle. For the most part, it’s a situation and pretty much happened. Like if you think a drag, right? The ball happened, if you want to keep it on the side, but for every reason gets to the middle. Now the ball is getting penetrated vertically towards the rim. And now what ended up happening, obviously you want to, you know, take away the corner three. So that guy that was on the 45, he’s going with the cutter to the corner and the guy who was started in the corner job to alert him to not, you know, to the, hey, it’s a cutter going through, right? So the communication is important.
But because if the guard can’t get back in front of the basketball, that’s the situation where it’s like, hey, send it to the big. We may have to peel that guard has to fall into the big legs. And that’s where you try to clean up those breakdowns, right? And prepare for those. So going back to the original point, if it’s a team that likes to down and keep it on the side, the breakdown occurred because why maybe it was the communication from the big, we couldn’t keep it on the side. Or you may have a team to say, Hey, you know what, we influenced middle, they’re still going to slide out of the corner and space to the corner as well. Now it’s a situation where if the ball happens to get down to the paint, you switch it or say, Hey, you know what? The screen is a little bit higher. You can look to go under and try to get back in front. So it’s so many different situations depending on what you teach. Some teams, like I said, want to keep it on the side. Some teams send the ball to the screen. So you just have to figure out whatever your defensive scheme is, and then how to adjust it based off one, the personnel, and then to how the team play offensively.
Dan Krikorian 19:45
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We’ll be there hosting a classroom-style film session, breaking down some of the game’s best trends from around the world. What we’re seeing show up across all levels, why it’s working, and how coaches are teaching it. You can register now for the convention at nabc.com slash convention. We’ll see you there. Coach, this has been awesome so far. We want to transition now to a segment on the show that we call Start, Sub, or Sit. For those potentially listening for the first time, what we’ll do is we’re going to give you three options around a topic, and you’ll start one of those options, your favorite, you’ll sub one, then you’ll sit your third favorite of the options. So, coach, this first Start, Sub, Sit has to do with where you feel like having deep analytical knowledge would help. And these are three late clock, and we’re getting real specific. Late clock isolation situations. So, Start, Sub, or Sit, deep analytical advantages and ISO situations. Option one is the player’s drive direction, preferred drive direction in ISO situations. Option two is the player’s off-the-bounce three-point and two-point field goal percentage. How well will they shoot off the bounce? Option three is their ISO assists percentage or amount of assists. Just how willing they are and how accurate they are in passing the ball out of an ISO. So, Start, Sub, Sit, late clock ISOs, drive direction preference, off-the-bounce field goal percentage, or assist percentage.
Johnnie Bryant 21:48
Who’s in isolation? Absolutely, right. Obviously, the personnel determines the position, right? So let’s just say it’s one of those guys who, you know, I saw your primary score most likely, right?
So off the dribble three for me, who would probably be the start. Now, if you have a driver, now it’s one of those things where direction. So now, you know, the assists, obviously, that probably be the last one. So if you have a guy that can shoot off the dribble threes, it’s one of those things that because they can shoot off the dribble threes, that’s the situation where it’s going to influence the drive direction, right? Hey, we got to make this guy a driver, right? Now, if it’s a guy that’s isolating and it’s not really a good shooter, then, you know, now the emphasis will be more on drive direction. But for the most part, you have guys shooting off the dribble threes, those just kind of hurt you, right? And that’s one of those things where it’s like, hey, because player X can do this, we need to make him a driver this way in particular, and then we rotate out of it.
Dan Krikorian 22:51
Thanks for the answer. Obviously, definitely personnel dependent. I mean, if I’m up there isolating, it doesn’t matter. You can just let me shoot it. Yeah, I need that.
Johnnie Bryant 22:59
I don’t know. I don’t know. You know, you may be like 1.42 or something. Hey, then we might, we might just go hit you and just get the ball.
Patrick Carney 23:09
That’s right. You mentioned a hit where the defense will go just, you’ll send the double, you’ll trap the mismatch or the ISO right away.
What are the factors of why you should hit? I guess what are you seeing in that mismatch or the isolation player that you make the decision, like we’re going to go hit, we’re going to go double it immediately versus a just force them to drive into our help. Like he’s got to drive or just back off. Like he can’t drive, you know, trying to just simplify the on-ball defender’s task.
Johnnie Bryant 23:37
Depends on the situation depends on the player and guys in the sleeve. They’re so good.
And once they get going, it’s very important you give them different coverages and different looks. So the point of any hit, you won’t call it hit, trap, whatever, like you’re putting to basketball. So you’re going to be quote unquote at a disadvantage. And, you know, the whole point is to get the ball out of the primary score hands. And now the bet is, hey, we hope player why, you know, can’t play right, his catching shoe three point percentage may be point nine, eight, and then you got a guy off the dribble who’s 1.2. It’s like, now that you’re playing the numbers at that point. So again, that’s the part going into the preparation where you try to prepare for those situations like, hey, you know, this is the matchup, this is, you know, maybe a person you assign off of, like, hey, we may get the switch, and it may not be the person that was in a primary action. Now somebody else you assign it. So there’s different ways to try to get the ball out of the player hands. But the whole point is, you want to make it to where that player doesn’t beat you. And then when the person, you know, whoever the player is, they give it up, don’t let them get it back. And then hopefully, by the time all that happens, you know, the shot clocks on their back, and now somebody else is shooting the basketball.
Patrick Carney 24:52
from a rotational standpoint, from the strategy of a coach, what goes into the hit success or at least yielding a shot you’re willing to live with made or missed.
Johnnie Bryant 25:02
obviously nothing at the rim, but the goal of the hit is to have someone else shoot the ball besides the primary guy. That’s it.
You know, every now and then somebody knock in a three, but just because you have a game plan in place doesn’t mean it’s going to quote unquote be perfect and it’s going to execute. But if you can make it to where the primary score is not the one taking a shot at the end of the game or in whatever possession it is, now you limit their opportunity to score at a higher clip because it’s quote unquote a player that is not as efficient as a player that has the basketball.
Patrick Carney 25:35
With the hit, I guess does the ability of your opponent to offensive rebound play a factor or the fact that you’re going to put your team in rotations and rebounding the possession?
Johnnie Bryant 25:47
always going to be a situation where you can kind of be hesitant. But in this business and this game, you can’t be afraid to take chances and take risks, right?
Because you never know that possession or two may swing the game. It may swing the momentum, right? So now they’re certain, you know, when you hit, you don’t want to just completely run at them. You want to make sure the rotations and everything is ready. But you know, it’s when I was saying when a shot go up, if you are at a disadvantage, it’s so important that you get to a body and try to rebound. The basketball and security basketball. And that’s the danger, right? Where it’s like, hey, anytime you put two on the ball, whether it’s a pick and roll and you’re blitzing or dribble handoff and you’re blitzing, it doesn’t have to be isolation situation. Like we’re talking about now, you know, you feel a little vulnerable, right? You have teams, some teams go zone and, you know, they’re afraid of the offense rebounding. But, you know, it’s one of those things, again, with certain players in this league, you have to give them a different look. You have to keep them guessing to where they don’t get comfortable and then pick you apart.
Dan Krikorian 26:47
Coach, my last question before we move to Pat, start subset, it’s just more on the hit and where it’s coming from. And I know it can come off of a certain player, it can come from a certain direction. The thoughts on one, where it might be sent from, whether it’s always from coming in front of them, or if it’s okay to come from behind, or you know, all the factors on how you would hit and what would go into that.
Johnnie Bryant 27:08
A lot of it depends on where the ball is, right? That’s why Dirk was really good, because put that ball in the middle of the floor and it’s like, okay, come on, you can see everything. And then teams will start trying to hit when his back was turned, forcing the spin and double team there. So the easy ones are when the ball’s on a 45 and you can see it coming from the opposite direction. So a lot of it just depends on the spacing, depends on the player.
I think the most important thing to the hit is you don’t want to get too extended. If you’re starting to go get people at half court, like now there’s just so much space to cover and it’s easy to pick that apart, right? So you want to kind of be in a space where you can get back and recover and get back into play. Because again, to the point, if you’re trying to hit at half court, they get rid of the ball, the shot goes up, you’re talking about offensive rebounding, there’s no chance that you’re going to go get that ball. But if you’re a little closer to shot go up, you can at least find the body and limit those guys to one shot.
Dan Krikorian 28:07
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Patrick Carney 28:34
All right, Coach, keeping it moving, our last start subset for you. We’ve coined this one, a culture of communication, and I’m going to give you three types of communication that we as coaches kind of strive for, try to build with our teams and our staffs.
Which one do you, in your experience, would be the hardest to get your team to communicate? Option one, honest feedback among the players, among the coaches. Option two would be communicating under stress and moments like critical moments, you know, in game, you know, being able to talk through actions, timeouts, then option three is just being able to be vulnerable with one another.
Johnnie Bryant 29:13
I think the toughest one is being vulnerable for one another, right? Cause you have guys who are competitive, they have egos and they don’t want to be viewed as like, there’s some weakness to them, right? Anytime you can have that type of environment where you can sit down and like, Hey, you know what, like Dan Pat, like this is how I feel. And you can do that and you look me off or whatever the case may be. And this made me feel X, Y, is it like, anytime you can have that type of communication, I think that’s the best, right? Because now you’re being authentic, you’re not holding anything back.
And then I think the next biggest challenge is stressful situations. Because I think in the heat of the moment, the emotions get the best of certain players. So I’m able to, Hey, you need to block out. And I can say it like that, or I mean, Hey, you need to, and my voice made me different because of, you know, it’s two minutes to go in the game. Now you hear it completely different. And now all of a sudden you’re not hearing the message of we just need to get a stop. We need to block out. And that’s the challenge.
Something I’ve done over the years is anytime a player come by the bench and like such and such need to do X, Y, and Z, I’d be like, tell them, or in a timeout, I’ll grab both of them. Hey, tell me what you just told me. Just force them to communicate. You’ll be surprised the first time it’s like that. It’s like, and then actually, you know, they start having another dialogue and that’s what you want. That’s the challenge.
And there’s been times as a coach for me where I’ve wanted to say something to a player and to force the communication between the players. I say, Hey, Dan, go tell Pat, you know, X, Y, and Z, tell him I said it. All you’re trying to do is just create that environment to where they communicate with each other. Because the wildest thing to me is you guys can hang out, play video games, eat in the meal room, text, group chat, but then in the game, like y’all want to get into each other.
Like it’s the craziest thing ever, right? It’s the craziest thing ever. So, and then obviously the last one probably would be out being truthful. I mean, that’s, I think our job as coaches is to provide the truth. Not how you deliver it is important. You have certain guys where you can call them out in front of a group, certain guys you have to pull them aside. And sometimes for me, you kind of do it on an individual basis. Hey, you know what, I need to pull Dan aside and have a conversation with him. Or if Pat is kind of crazy, like, and he gets motivated by being called out. I’m going to do that in front of the group, but where I land on, if it’s something that’s eaten at the fabric of the culture, it needs to be addressed as a group. Those are the conversations, the tough conversations that it’s our job as coaches to bring to the surface to where it’s like, why aren’t you rotating? Cause bigs, they’re the most stubborn players in the game.
Johnnie Bryant 32:06
You know, if you miss them on the roll or whatever the case would be, now all of a sudden they’re not helping you at the rim and you know, just all these little things like, Hey, or they go help at the rim and all of a sudden their man get a tip in and no one cracked down to hit them. All bets are off, right?
So it’s one of those things where it’s like, you know, I’ve been telling the guards since I’ve been in the NBA, man, keep your bigs happy. Keep your bigs happy. Give them the ball a little bit, you know, pat them on the back. Cause when they shut down on you, Oh man, me, we were talking about earlier, he won’t be there.
Patrick Carney 32:40
Staying on the critical communication, communicating in-game. And if we go back to our first conversation, looking at a practice setting, what do you and a staff think about when you’re putting together a drill or in practice, just trying to breed this communication and the environments you create that, whether it’s a constraint or something that forces them to communicate.
Johnnie Bryant 33:00
The most basic one is just put on some crowd noise, set up practicing in a choir gym, put on some crowd noise, and then now they have to communicate to each other, right? Because it’s loud. You think about it, most practices you go to, you know, everyone is talking, but there’s no music, there’s no external noise. And then you go in the game, now you want them to communicate. So that’s an easy one to do.
Or you have it to where it’s like, you know what, here’s the situation, coaches don’t say anything, and you guys talk to each other. And now you can just go straight quiet. You know, it’s one of those things where there’s a situation where the drags in the backcourt, right? Communicate one of those things so your guard doesn’t get blindsided. There’s different ways you can kind of foster that communication. And then if you see a breakdown, like you stop it, hey, what is the call here? What are you supposed to do? Why didn’t hear it? Well, you got to say it louder. You got to say it earlier. It’s one of those things where you’re watching film, hey, Dan, call. And now it’s like, okay, I got to you know, you take ownership and I have to be better in this situation. So you try to create it. But you know, as we know, once that game gets going, everything’s moving, you get a little tired, you get really quiet. But that’s the challenge to where you have to push through those situations.
Patrick Carney 34:14
off court. So not necessarily you’re in a practice or a film room, but how also you may think about building this culture of communication with talks or conversations or stories or workshops, exercise, like in your experience, kind of some other tools that you’ve experienced or done yourself to help just get a team that trusts each other more, that communicates better, and maybe eventually gets vulnerable with one another.
Johnnie Bryant 34:41
That’s constant, right? The conversations go past practice or the game texting with a player. They may be a situation where it’s like, Hey, you know what? Let’s go have dinner tonight. Or, Hey, let’s have a team event to where you kind of bring the guys around. And, you know, more than anything, like in those settings, when it’s like, Hey, let’s have dinner, you just kind of hanging out and just communicating. And if basketball comes up, it does. If there’s a situation where basketball needs to come up, great. But it’s those moments when the group is together where it’s like, okay, now we’re becoming a unit as opposed of you have a group of guys here, a group of guys there, and as we know, being around sports, it’s tough to win when you have that type of division set up. So it’s a constant daily thing.
Anytime you’re trying to build something, whatever it is that’s sustainable, you got to continuously, you know, work at it and find different ways to deliver the message, right? That’s why it’s so important to have like a core group of guys that’s in the building to where now new guys that come on, Hey, this is kind of how we do it here. And then now it’s easy for those guys to kind of fall in line. So you look at the programs that have been successful throughout the NBA, obviously San Antonio, like they had those three guys there and no matter who was coming in and out, they were holding guys accountable. You look at, you know, Chicago, they had Michael Jordan, Scotty Pippin, and then they were able to handle a Dennis Robbin, right? Golden state, you know, Draymonde, Steph, and Clay for three years. And then different guys come in and out of that system and they adjust. So that’s the hope and goal is you can find those quote unquote pillars to the program, and then now next thing you know, they can kind of continue with your message and everyone follows suit.
Dan Krikorian 36:24
For sure. Your learnings or growth as a coach, when it comes to communication, as you’ve climbed up in coaching from going from player to player development and assistant, associate head coach and you know, eventually head coach, just the way in style in which a coach coming up and changing spots on the bench needs to communicate with different types of players and any learnings there from you.
Johnnie Bryant 36:45
Not many people know this. I mean, I guess you could read my bio, you may know it, but I feel like I have a cheat sheet because I majored in human development. I also have my degree in sports management, but I majored in human development. And the reason why I feel like it’s an advantage for me because you learn different personalities, you learn different communication styles.
You know, I’ve had guys that I can literally, we will be face-to-face, like I can get on them. Tough, hard-nosed coaching. And I’ve had guys where it’s like, you try that, you’re gonna lose them. So that’s what takes time building those genuine relationships. One of the things I try to do with whatever players I’m working with is like, I really try to get to know them and know what makes them tick, know what their goals are and how I can be an asset to them to help them. And as opposed of like, hey, you got to do it this way. You may have someone who has anxiety and all of a sudden if you’re yelling at them, it may cause them to go inward, right? But if you don’t really get to know that player, if you don’t really invest in that player, you won’t know that. You won’t get the most out of them. And it’s our job to figure out how to connect with the players. That’s the ultimate test, right? And like I said, I feel like I have the cheat sheet to that just because of my background and just the educational component of it. And there’s guys, I’ve had guys on players that I’m close to, to this day where it’s like, you know what, he’s a little fragile or you know what? I can’t say this in front of the group. I’m gonna have to pull him aside. But one thing I pride myself on, no matter who I’m working with is to always be honest with him. And hopefully it’s something that I say or do that can help them for the rest of their career because for me in this space, you never know how long you’re gonna be with a player, right? Either they’re gonna get traded, they’re signed somewhere else. We as coaches get fired or we move on somewhere else, right? So you never know how much time you have with a player that can help them for the rest of their career. And that’s the way I go into it. For me, being in a position I am now, what, six years now associated coach? Like now I have to actually have a relationship with a little bit of everybody. Whatever reason, you know, the head coach goes down. I have to be able to communicate with all the players, and one of the things I’ve gravitated towards and like the two way guys, like I actually spend a lot of time with them, like joking and getting to know them because they wanna feel a part of it, right? The quote unquote top dogs, hey, you guys, you go over there, right? We’ll communicate enough. Some of my favorite players I’ve coached, man, are guys at 11th, 12th, 13th man on the team just because you’re just hanging out and cracking jokes and things like that. So it’s very important to really build relationships with the players. They need to know that you care about their development and their growth.
Dan Krikorian 39:42
Coach, awesome. Well said, you’re off the start, sub or sit hot seat. Thanks for playing that game with us. That was a ton of fun.
And we got a final question to close the show for you. But before we do, thank you so much for coming on. This is a ton of fun today. So we appreciate your time. Appreciate this. This is great. Our last question that we asked all the guests, what’s the best investment that you’ve made in your career as a coach?
Johnnie Bryant 40:03
just talk to a buddy of mine about this. My first year coaching in Utah, at the time we were in the summer league in Orlando. Utah didn’t participate in Vegas because Utah had a Utah summer league and then they go to Orlando. We have a close friend to this day.
He was coaching. He was like, hey, like come to Vegas and just follow me around and I’m just going to introduce you everyone. And I’m like, okay, but I’m not really making any money. You know what I mean? Like I was an assistant coach for, you know, player development. Like actually it was player development slash this. I don’t know. I forgot the title. Assistant coach for player development. I think that’s what the title was. So I’m like, I’m going out to Vegas for a week and like there’s going to be a couple of grand. I don’t really know if I have the means to do it, but I’m trying to learn and get to know people. And here’s a, hey, this is coach so-and-so, you know, this is coach Fizzdale. This is, you know, Lloyd Pierce, like all these people, hey, you know, this is Tim Gergovich, you know, just all these people. And I’m like, okay. And then now looking back at it, it’s like, wow, I made an investment in myself to take time out of my schedules, go down there and meet these different people. And here I am now 14 years later coaching an NBA. That was something where if you quote unquote, look at an investment in dollar amount, you know, whether it’s going to a clinic or whatever the case may be, making a phone call, like really just have that hunger to seek knowledge and be curious on how to get better. And like I said, that probably was, if I had to pinpoint something, I’m not saying to change the trajectory of my career. I believe everyone path and journey is different, but it was one of those things where I can look back and like, you know, like that was money well spent, you know, years later. And sometimes it doesn’t always happen that way, right? But if you want to be successful, if you want to be great at something, there’s some type of investment that you have to make, whether it’s monetarily or just time, right? So it doesn’t always have to be monetary.
Dan Krikorian 42:11
All right, Pat, let’s hop into this recap. Awesome having coach Brian on, always fun to get a chance to get inside the mind of a really great, and as we know, an elite younger coach in the NBA that, you know, people talk very highly of. Fun to have him come on today, talk about a wide variety of stuff from, you know, the CLA to hitting on ISOs, to building a culture. So it was really fun conversation.
Patrick Carney 42:34
Yeah, as you alluded to middle of the season right now. So again, much appreciation to coach Brian taking some time out. We’re all aware of how hectic NBA season and schedule is. So it was awesome to have him sit down with us and get some time.
And like you said, get on a bunch of different things. Let’s get into it. I’ll throw it to you for the first takeaway.
Dan Krikorian 42:55
Yeah. So I’ll go to the first bucket and that was ecological design, the CLA stuff that I know a lot of coaches know is out there. And I think it was interesting to hear from someone at the highest of levels at the NBA level that I know they’ve leaned into it with the Cavs. And like we talked about on the show, pre-show all that, I mean, there’s a ton out there on like skill development and how important and how good it is for that, but then sort of trying to broaden it to where it can sit within a larger scheme or system on top of that. And so I think that was one of the things we’re obviously thinking about for this conversation. I just think we’re also thinking about that in general as these types of conversations come up amongst coaches all around the world of how you layer this into how you want to play and schemes and you add in all the stuff you can add in. So it was fun to hear him talk about that. I think what I like and took away is the subtle ways you can start to build it in even with players that like the block reps or just want to shoot their 20 jumpers or things like that where you’re maybe as a coach, you’re thinking like, if I’m going to do this, I got to have all the answers and I got to have all the right drills and these things that just like really blow them away versus him saying, Hey, just to start, I mean, you can just throw in a heavy ball for a rep or throw in something real subtly within it to just add the variability. And I think just dipping your toe in the water as a coach to try and see what works, what doesn’t work or what feels right. I think it was good.
I also think like some of your follow ups about just adjusting constraints when players are either not cheating it, but you know, like when you’re putting something in and it’s not getting the intended effect, how do you adjust from there? And I think this is where this is much more of an art than it is a science of these are the exact drills. This is the constraint. This is going to get the result. It’s something you figure out as you go. And it’s so dependent on your players and who you are and point of the season and what your goals are. And I think it’s more or less just like, are you building the tools that you can use when you see you need to use them?
Patrick Carney 44:57
Yeah, I keep asking the question about the constraints, hoping to find that magic bullet, but you’re right. He’s right. Every other coach we talk to, it is trial and error. And as you do it more, you get comfortable with what constraints can kind of trigger the reaction or solution you’re hoping for. But until then, you got to work through it.
Two things that I took away and which I think really has us curious about kind of this team approach or the CLA to team development, concept development is your ability to learn something about your team because you’re putting them in these different situations. And like he said, they’re going to show you something. And then also its ability to breed adaptability in terms of getting away from being ball screen dominant. And he gave great examples of like, okay, you can only score through off ball actions or there’s no dribble to breed cutting. And I think where these things have real value in like how you develop your team is forcing your team to maybe at least for a certain segment play one way. And like he said, in the hopes that it’ll translate to a moment in the game when you do run off ball or maybe you’re playing a team. That’s just, I go back to the Australian head coach at the time, Brian Gorgen, and he talked about team USA with the athletes they had were just blowing up all their ball screens with switching, you know, they turn every ball screen into like a off ball splitter, get action to tie that back in with these different constraints. You can kind of build in these curve balls for these different playing styles. Hopefully, you know, again, you learn about your team, maybe you can, or maybe you learn we can go off ball versus if we need to get away from the ball screen, or we do have cutting capabilities. And I think like that’s the real benefit of this stuff, like allowing you to stretch and grow your team and learn from your team that I really like.
Dan Krikorian 46:44
Yeah, sort of a subtle benefit, I think, to some of this stuff is its ability to build culture in your team or build trust amongst you and your players. And I think the reason being is, you know, when players feel like you’re invested in getting them better, they’ll play harder for you.
They’re more willing to do the hard things you ask them to do eventually, you know, box out, rebound, like make the extra pass. So these ways, these constraints, games, small-sided games, all these things that are, they’re fun for them. They feel like they’re getting better. It can really add, I think, to your team that, hey, like we’re all in on you becoming a better player and not everything is grounding them in on these certain things we have to do. But like, hey, here’s some exploratory stuff. Here’s how we’re going to take this and maybe add it to our offense. And like, it feels like it’s a more all-in approach across the board so that when you do have to also make them do the tough stuff and sit down and guard and rotate and rebound, it’s not all the time. There’s a part of them that can explore and get better. And I think just like a subtle thing that even if it’s just small parts of your practice can add to that feeling overall.
Patrick Carney 47:51
Quickly, before we move on, I think it’s worth mentioning, you know, and I followed up with it, the defensive applications and developing your defense. I think that’s also like the next realm.
I think a lot of it is, yeah, went from player development, okay, team, offensive style, different playing styles. But yeah, now as you can just maybe, again, the adaptability piece within your defense, helping your defense maybe navigate gray areas better. And I enjoyed that conversation, especially when we got into like kind of manufacturing starts or manufacturing environments. And there’s a lot of stuff we do with Coach Drew Dunlap that we enjoy so much. And how you think about maybe different starts that can breed complete blowbys, but maybe also give the defense a fighting chance where you can learn what is a line drive, threatening drive versus a flat drive. And, you know, middle penetration versus baseline. So it puts unpredictability into the defense that they’re forced to then recognize the situation and folding and solve within their rotations that I also think that this has far reaching applications in.
Dan Krikorian 48:50
No doubt. Well Pat, let’s move on to point number two and I’ll throw that one back to you
Patrick Carney 48:55
Yeah, for point number two, I’ll go to your start subset, where we talked about late clock isolation analytics and the factors that he weighs in terms of drive direction, passing direction or off the dribble. No surprise like most of these questions and probably this one more so, extremely player personnel driven.
But going off the drive direction conversation, where we got into like the hits and I think the hit conversation, I really enjoyed it something. We’ve done a number of different types of hits and hitting from two man side, hitting off of the rolls. We’ve talked about that. I think it’s a really interesting strategy, especially in the NBA where I mean, the guys are uber talented in these possession situations. I just enjoy the exercise, the conversation going through like why you would hit versus all right, we’re just kind of tell the matchup, you know, for some baseline, or if he is guy who can’t, you know, low percentage dribble shooter, you know, then let’s gap off. Anything late game, just getting the coaches thinking about their thought process and the trade offs is always worth its weight in gold when we have those.
Dan Krikorian 49:57
conversations. So his start was the off the bounce field goal percentage of three or two is what he started as a thing you would analytically want to know and then end up sitting the assist stuff and subbing the ISO drive direction, which obviously they’re all important in a way.
But I think for them, if you’re operating against a player, I feel like in ISO situations, late game, you can pretty much protect the rim, right? If you drop a guy like to the rim, like make it so they can’t get downhill the rim, but the scary players are the ones that can rise up and knock down shots. So it makes sense that like, what is this player able to do when they are off the bounce? Can I think then help with the decisions on, well, do we need to go hit? Where do we hit from? Or if they’re a lower percentage shooter off the bounce, then it’s more low fields just force them to their weekend in that drive direction, we don’t need to hit and put ourselves in potential rotation. So I think it’s just like interesting him starting that field goal percentage. And I think anybody listening to this knows if they played against someone this year that can just rise up and make mid range jumpers or whatever. It’s pretty scary down the stretch, because you do got to do something, you know, as much as you might have a great defender on the ball, guys that are pretty good at getting to their mid range or even pulling from three, it’s hard to block that shot. And second, a lot of times your best defenders don’t try to block it as heavily because of fear of fouling late in ISO situations. So it’s like, they’re going to get it off potentially. So I just thought it was kind of an interesting thought process to, you know, there’s so many analytics, there’s so many stats that these staffs can have. And just, you know, what’s important to help with decision making in these situations.
Patrick Carney 51:32
I agree. Like I said, just, you know, work through the trade-offs and kind of like it’s all like, what can you stomach and what are you willing to give up, you know, and kind of lay your head down at night and sleep with.
All right. All right. I’ll throw it back to you to take us home for the last takeaway of our conversation here today.
Dan Krikorian 51:53
I’ll go to your start subset which had to do with the communication and I also just want to know I did like his best investment question cool story about taking the chance to go to Vegas and get to meet some people and where he is now I just thought that was a cool part of the podcast to hear that but I’ll just go to your start subset and specifically go to the start vulnerability and how hard that is and makes sense for him talking about the ego and the level that he’s at and those kinds of things and I think that you and I have discussed this a bunch but if you’re able to get to a point where staff coaches are have some level of vulnerability with each other on things what a difference it can make you know we had master storyteller Claire Murphy not too long ago and in that podcast she talked about the thing they would do called the three H’s you know your hero hardship and highlight story just doing that one time with the group how much it can lead to the group sharing and finding out about each other more and what that does for the connection of the group so I just took that away as how important it is and how difficult it is to get to as much as it’s you say on the podcast is important like it’s not easy based off your group and your level and so it’s something that you know he mentioned it’s kind of the fabric of everything you do to try to get to it
Patrick Carney 53:13
Yeah, this start subset was directly born out of our conversation with Clara Murphy, really got me thinking a lot, especially the critical communication. Two things what he mentioned in the critical communication of stress, the situation and the tone applied. I think Preston Klein talked about this too, when we interviewed him in the heat of a moment. I mean, tone is always important, but you have more flexibility with the tone because you’re, let’s say, quote, unquote, in combat in the heat of the moment. You just need to get the message across versus now if you’re in a practice setting or you take away that true competition, like tone weighs heavily. And then that can really affect your message.
And I thought he was spot on it. You know, us as coaches kind of understanding the tone meter and when you can kind of the sliding scale of tone probably is better put there. And then the second point, I thought he spoke really well on it. It went to your follow up to about when he started getting like just human development and the importance of connecting with your players to figure it out. What makes them tick and to make us better coaches for them in terms of, he alluded, if one guy, you know, if he calls him out, he’s going to get anxious. And that’s going to probably then he’s going to go inward versus receive whatever the criticism, the feedback, the coaching and like the important that if we don’t take our time to learn our players. And I think to your point, and what Claire Murphy is like, if we have these conversations early on, or the, you know, we force the guys to tell stories like and you learn about, okay, what will make them come out of their shell? What will make them recede inside? What are guys I can, you know, maybe call out in front of the group versus guys that need individual conversations. And, you know, this is the stuff that especially for them 82 games, that even for everyone, it’s a long season, no matter the length. And they’re going to hear our voice all the time. It’s just an L we’re going to, if like, we don’t consider the individual we’re talking to, like, it’s very easy to rub people the wrong way, and then just get shut down, or they’re not going to buy into what we’re trying. To promote in week seven, month seven, whatever it may be. Good stuff.
Dan Krikorian 55:14
Pat, we’ve gone through a lot. Was there anything else from your end that we potentially could have gone deeper on or any misses, not from coach Brian, of course, if we had more time?
Patrick Carney 55:22
One miss was staying on this communication piece was with team events and just kind of not so much what events to do, but I guess what goes into a successful team event in terms of I guess I was thinking like, does it always have to have a message? You know, we mentioned the guys are always, you know, it’s easy for them to be asked to talk to text and of course at a team event, you know, it’s going to still have some of that communication. But like, does it have to have like a team building aspect always to it or wrap it up with a takeaway? So guys are getting something more meaningful out of, yeah, we got together, we joke, we bullshitted, we had fun, you know, which is important.
Of course, it shouldn’t be a chore, but being mindful, what goes into like a team event and does it have to have some sort of like purpose beyond just, you know, have fun together?
Dan Krikorian 56:15
Yeah, that’s an interesting balance. I think to your point, as a coach, you do a team event, guys are having fun, or you do some activity, and there’s that balance of, do I need to wrap this thing up and put a bow on it? Or was the fact that we were just all together and having a good time enough? And I think that’s a feel thing.
I think also depends on is it a more formal session where you do want to wrap it up versus we’re just hanging and guys are getting ready to leave. And then coach is like, hey guys, I got one more theme to talk about here. And it’s like, nah, come on, let’s get out of here.
Patrick Carney 56:44
Yeah. And that’s the thing.
Like if it’s, you know, a team dinner versus, is it a escape room paintball or something where it’s like teams and trying to force more communication beyond just surface level stuff.
Dan Krikorian 56:57
I think coaching is one giant escape room for a whole season. That’s basically what coaching is.
Patrick Carney 57:02
Let me know when you get out.