This week on Slappin’ Glass, we’re joined by coach developer and researcher Dan Clements for a conversation on building better learning environments inside high-performance sport.
The episode starts with the difference between mastery-based and performance-based environments, and how coaches can create practices where players are more invested, more motivated, and more connected to their own development.
Dan gets into the details of voice, choice, task design, differentiation, and feedback, including how one drill can serve different players in different ways. The task may be the same, but the coaching cannot be.
We also discuss the craft of intervention: when to stop a drill, when to coach on the fly, and when to simply observe. Dan makes the point that coaches are often poor historians of their own practices, which makes reflection a key tool for growth.
The conversation also touches on strength-based coaching, the difference between honest positivity and toxic positivity, and how coaches can be demanding without constantly coaching from a deficit.
In this week’s Start, Sub, or Sit, Dan ranks autonomy, competence, and relatedness as drivers of player motivation, leading to a strong discussion on belonging, confidence, and helping struggling players find traction again.
A few things worth listening for:
- Building mastery environments inside performance-driven programs
- Using player voice and choice without losing structure
- Differentiating within live practice
- Knowing when to intervene and when to let the task breathe
- Coaching from strengths without ignoring hard truths
- Helping struggling players regain confidence through task design and feedback
Transcript
Dan 02:00
Dan, we want to start with this. I know it’s something that you do work with and work with coaches a lot on, and that’s the concept of building a mastery versus performance-based environment. What the difference is in your mind and why coaches should think about those differences in building more towards mastery than just straight performance-based.
Dan Clements 02:20
a great topic to start on because I think when you talk about performance environments, everyone has a pretty consistent view on what they think that is and what they believe to be true in that space. I think a lot of that is true and a lot of that would be true.
I think a lot of the research and the work that I’ve done in this space, particularly around player development and elite sports, focuses on that idea of if you can build a mastery performance environment, an environment that fosters intrinsic motivation to the best of your ability as a coach, you’ve probably got more of a chance in relation to multiple goals, whether that’s team success, individual player development, or even just kids loving sport for the rest of their life. I think if you can build a place where athletes and players really value coming back to, you’re onto a strong start as a head coach or as a coach.
Dan 03:10
So to start with the mastery-based environment, what are the ingredients that you start to think about that go into that type of environment?
Dan Clements 03:17
The simplest level, you could be talking about voice and choice. So do you give players voice and choice within your sessions? Because I think what that does show to us, if you give voice and choice, people are a little bit more committed and they’re a little bit more intrinsically motivated to commit to what you’re ultimately trying to deliver as a coach.
There’s another couple of frameworks out there that talk about very specific things around like task design, individual, probably one of the hardest things we have to do as coaches or what coaches have to do, differentiation. How do you differentiate for individuals in the same drill? There’s work that some coaches do in that space, which is unbelievable. But I think that you’ve seen it in the world of teaching. It’s one of the hardest things that teachers have to grasp because you’re trying to control a group of 25, 30 people and you’re always thinking about how can I differentiate for each individual within this? So yeah, I think about those three things to start with.
Pat 04:11
Dan, on the differential coaching, when you see it done right, what does it look like? Are you helping coaches cater to however many athletes you have to make sure that drill is hitting its mark or whatever the task is?
Dan Clements 04:25
And I think for me, there’s something about making sure the task design is representative. So it’s gotten the outcomes and the intended outcomes that you’re looking to achieve within whatever it is.
So whether it’s a technical or a tactical focus. Then within that, when you start to think around differentiation, it’s about your intentional planning that roles you might require each player to play within that task or that drill. And then as that progresses and as the practice plays out, I think the most important element that any coach can do is watch and observe, be a great observer, curious about why an individual might be succeeding with one thing, might be struggling with another. And then at the right time, if needed intervening, because that’s the biggest skill you’ve got as a coach, being able to help and support individual development within that task. And that’s where the differentiation comes in because the feedback should be very specific and focused to that individual based on the thing that you’re expecting them to work on. So if, I don’t know, if you’re pairing people up, it’s one might be focused more on a defensive type scenario, one might be focused more on an attacking type scenario, and you might be more deliberate about where you place those individuals in that drill. But then also how you then feed back during that drill and when, whether that’s on the fly, whether that’s in between breaks, those kinds of things. I think that’s the real skill that a coach has to show.
Pat 05:47
On that intervene practice, how do you help coaches to differentiate between when to intervene, when it should be on the fly, when it should be after the drill water break, and when it should be stop the drill or stop the task and intervene and, you know, direct feedback.
Dan Clements 06:01
That’s really hard because that comes with practice, doesn’t it? I think coaching is, and we’ll probably come onto it, coaching is one of those, one of those passions, one of those careers that you can only get better by doing it so you can read as much as you like, you can talk about as much as you like, but you can only get truly great at it when you really like practice it, make some mistakes and learn what works and what doesn’t work.
I think some of the easy techniques that I’ve taught in the past and what I still use to this day is around if I’m working with a coach and I think a coach is intervening too much, you can do simple behavior analysis exercises, which range from how long is the ball in play for during a practice through to what type of feedback are you giving? Is it descriptive? Is it developmental? You can build those tools however you see fit and only when you really show somebody what type of interventions they’re doing and they’re giving as a coach, can you really like hold the mirror up a little bit to them? From my experience of what I’ve seen, coaches are pretty poor at remembering what they did. They’re either stuck in the motion and they’re doing some great coaching, but they probably only remember one or two really key things that might have happened a whole session.
Dan 07:10
And following up on that, I think one of the things you’ve spoken about a coach’s reflective practice and how they look back at what they did and whether it’s the practice they set up or the game they played or whatever that is, and how as coaches we can use some kind of reflective practice to first of all, remember what we did and what worked, what didn’t, but also just for growth within our environment. It fascinates me.
Dan Clements 07:33
I think it’s one of the hardest things to do because coaches, they’re really time poor, because after the practice, you’re already thinking about the next one. And in some environments, you might be then thinking about, right, I’ve got meeting with the owners. I’ve got to meet them with the board. I’ve got to meet them with the sponsors or the media. And all of a sudden, that practice is forgotten.
Somebody else might be clipping it up or someone might be doing some video analysis. But as a coach, how can you really carve out the time, dedicate the time to put some real thought into that session, whether that’s the intended outcome? So what did I go after? What was I going after within that session? How did I perform against those intended outcomes? What might have been some different outcomes that I did get? What are the things that I might not have achieved that I really set out to at the start? And what could I do slightly differently next time to achieve that? I think being a bit more specific on my language, because I really try and focus on that strength-based analysis, because in high performance and in elite sport and player development, we’re always focused on fixing problems. So what didn’t I do? What didn’t the players do? What didn’t work? We never spend enough time starting with what went well and what did we really achieve out of that session? What were the biggest takeaways? And I think when you start from there, then you start to build out, well, how can we iterate and how could the next practice be even better?
Dan 08:52
Yeah, maybe we can go just a little deeper on the reflective practice. And my question centers around self-reflection versus group reflection.
So whether you should reflect it just yourself as a coach, as an assistant, as a head coach for a few minutes versus you and the staff all sit down after practice and kind of go through some sort of group reflection. And I’m sure both are useful, but what a balance would look like and what’s most helpful for coaches.
Dan Clements 09:19
I think for me, it’s a healthy balance. And this is my bias.
I really truly believe, particularly in team sports, in the strengths of the collective. I think in really high performing cultures, you can see that done really well. So it’s a good reflective practice that everyone kind of nudges and pushes and challenges in the right way to iterate and improve on what’s been delivered. But you have to carve out that time to be able to understand your thoughts and be clear about what your thoughts were either on the game or the session that you delivered or your role within that session. Or even if you’re the head coach, the assistant coach is performed in that session because they’re probably looking to you for a bit of guidance as well. So you have to carve out that time and strike that balance. And I think if you don’t do that, you could end up in that space of groupthink where you’re all kind of just first person who speaks, we’ll just build from that. And everyone keeps building on the same thing, but everyone hasn’t had the chance to pick up on the thing that no one really picked up on because you haven’t had the time to either A, think about individually, or B, we’re all focused in on the first person that spoke.
Dan 10:24
So with self-reflection or group reflection, and we kind of relate this back to maybe like a mastery focused environment, what are the markers, what are the things I think that a good reflective practice looks like because we can get so caught up in the performance of the night before and if we won or we lost, or with players if they’re shooting well versus not, and it can really simply and easily, because we want to win games, kind of feel performance based in reflection. And I guess what a good mastery orientated coaches do or look like in those practices to not overly shift to performance mode. I think the same.
Dan Clements 10:59
great frameworks out there. And I’ll probably lean in towards some work that I’ve done myself, what many others have done before in a field called motivational climate. And it’s a great area of study if anybody’s interested.
But it’s how do you create that task-orientated climate? So that climate that surrounds your session, your club, your team, how do you create that environment to help people move forward and be more task mastery focused? And there’s certain things and certain markers that you should be reflecting on and focusing on. And that ranges from really strong practice design and task design throughout your sessions. So making sure that we touched on the areas we spoke about before, there’s goals within those sessions, there’s differentiation, you need to play a voice. So however much you like to give or not give, you need players voice within there. So players need a choice. And that could be as far as how wide is the court, how deep is the court through to where can they shoot from? But as long as they feel like they’ve had a voice within that session, they’re going to be more motivated. And then I think you then start to focus in and reflect on things like feedback and how you’re giving feedback within that session. And I’d always emphasize, if we’re looking for a mastery climate, don’t compare. So don’t compare Dan to Patrick, compare Dan to Dan and Patrick to Patrick and keep that feedback focused on that individual. We’re all guilty of it. We’ve all done it in the past. We’ll say, we’ve seen a really great play or a really great shot. Everybody just focusing on over there. Can we just have a look at a little Johnny does it or look how so and so does it. We’ve all done it straight away. The research is telling us all of a sudden, I’m not as good as that person. So everything that’s well intended as a coach role modeling or good looks like, I’m now thinking I’m in picture show. So I’m not as good as that person. So feedback should be purely focused on me. And the feedback should also, they talk about private in the research, but I think that’s not right because you can’t run around a session whispering to people because it’s impossible. But it really means, and what I took it as, you’re keeping it nice and kind of like individual to that individual. If it’s individual focused, if it’s group, that’s fine. But if you’re talking with an individual, it’s more, it’s not in front of their peers. It says they’re jogging past you as they grab in a water, those kinds of things. And then you can go even deeper and reflect on like, how did I group that session? Did I put people of the same ability? Did I put people of different abilities within that group to challenge the individuals that need a bit more stretch? The last point I always focus in on is time. So reflecting on time, as soon as you step into a performance environment, it’s driven by the clock.
Dan Clements 13:36
So we’ve got six minutes on this, 12 on this, and you know what it’s like when you’re in the flow and when things are going well, as a coach, you’re like, Oh, I just want to go a bit longer. And really similar in the same scenario, if you’re not quite getting the outcomes you want, we’re too busy to go, right, thumbs up, let’s move on to the next thing.
Be flexible with the time and make sure that you’re kind of given that space for learning to happen. There’s a great framework, if anybody wanted to read about it, it’s called the target framework, but that target is broken down into those areas. And it gives you a great framework to think about. If you want to deliver that kind of environment, those are the things I should be thinking about and reflecting on that.
Dan 14:14
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Pat 15:22
Dan, another thing preparing for this conversation research is you talk a lot about the appreciative inquiry approach, but also within that, the power of positivity or being positive as you coach. And I think a lot of times coaches as a tool, we can use, I don’t know if negativity is the right word, but we can use, we can yell, we can scream, we can kind of show how much we care by trying to be super direct, brutally direct.
And I guess how coaches can think about positivity and especially when it’s in terms of you need to win the next game, you’re in a high performance environment and how they can get the same results by also maybe using positivity more often and not feeling they need to go to the toolbox of just, I’m just going to yell at him and demand. Yeah.
Dan Clements 16:05
That’s right. It’s good. I’ll caveat this with you’re asking a Brit about positivity. We’re inherent in our nature not to be positive.
So, thickly it comes to food and weather. So, when I came across this research, it’s not a great sticky phrase, pre-strictive inquiry. It’s not because people go, well, what’s that? But I think it’s more about if you positioned a pre-strictive inquiry as strength-based research or strength-based insights into a culture, environment, or individual practice. That’s a different way to start to think about it. What it isn’t, because what puts people off? Because we know the gritty realities of a performance environment, pressure, etc. It puts people off because they think it’s all just sunshine and rainbows. I think it’s Bernie Brown who talks about on one of her podcasts I listened to where she talks about toxic positivity. And that really made me like check myself. And I looked into that more and toxic positivity as everything’s going to be okay. The world’s falling down around us, but oh no, no, we’ll be okay. Everything’s fine. We’ve lost 10 on the bounce. Everything’s fine. We’ll be okay. That’s not strength-based thinking or a pre-strictive inquiry.
A pre-strictive inquiry starts with the idea of everybody does something pretty well, particularly in sport. You wouldn’t be in the positions you’re in or you wouldn’t be playing on this team if you weren’t quite good at something. So, if we can be good at that and really kick the backside out of that and be great, how can we then build from there? As opposed to my earlier point, performance sports. We think performance equals direct. This is your job. Stay in your lane. Get things done. Be better at this. These are the problems we need to fix. And I think that’s the really interesting part about pre-strictive inquiry.
It starts to get you to think about, well, actually, what are we doing really well? So, we might have finished mid-table last year, but we’re clearly doing something well. If we’re doing this well, how do we do more of that? But how do we then layer on that? How do we build from there? I think that’s the thing that I’ve really enjoyed bringing in from… Because it comes out of this business world and change management.
But I think when we’ve brought it across to the world of sport, the research that I found, particularly around coaching and coach development. So, I looked at it from a coach development perspective. So, if we want to be better coaches to deliver these great environments, how would we do it? That’s starting with the ideas from me. You go and do it. Because again, that’s just me telling people what they should do. They’re clearly really strong individuals. That’s why they’ve got to where they are. So, let’s work out what we do really better to build from there.
Pat 18:37
If we look back at like the interventions and if you were to sit with the coach afterwards and you talked about how they gave feedback where it doesn’t become toxic positive, but like how do you would encourage coach like maybe this is how you can be positive within it to deliver the message or get the change you’re looking for again versus just demanding and yelling and telling them they did it wrong.
Dan Clements 18:58
a clip and I use it in a couple of workshops and it’s a basketball clip and it’s a coach for the life of me now. I can’t remember his name.
I clicked it off YouTube somewhere, but he talks to the player and the player is not playing very well. And as a coach, you clearly you’re going to be, I’ve got two ways of handling this. I could go more direct, more deficit. This isn’t good enough, et cetera, et cetera. Or I could, the coach kind of addresses it and talks about what his strengths are. So these are your strengths. I think he talks about a jump shot. These are your strengths and we’re not seeing enough of it. How can we get the more out of this from you? And you could tell the player as he’s walking off the court, he’s absolutely like mortified because he’s not playing very well, but the coach is straight away in his ear talking about what he’s good at and how can we get more of that out of him in the next quarter and the next plays.
And I think that’s the way you then start to position feedback. For me, that gives a different framework as opposed to you going straight into the play and telling them, this isn’t good enough. And, you know, I need you to do this a bit more, et cetera, et cetera. You haven’t focused on anything about what their strengths or what their weapon might be, because every player has got a weapon in their arsenal. And I think that’s the bit that I always come back to on feedback. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want to put it across as like there is only one way of doing it because this is the beauty of coaching. There is times when you can be direct and tell players and you should be direct and tell players because it’s a different stimulus, the way that it starts to foster more motivation into people.
And that’s the gift of a coach. And that’s fine in the sweet spot between all those different flavors of interventions that you can give is the real gift. It’s a real gift that then starts to help you thrive as a coach.
Dan 20:35
My question has to do with top-down approaches versus more player-centric or, you know, everybody’s got ownership, membership of whatever this group is. And how as a leader, if it’s not straight top-down, a leader can still feel in command of a group, even when they’re giving up sort of the top-down approaches.
And I guess where you’ve seen great coaches do that, and then, you know, what you talk about with coaches when you help them to sit in that space. Yeah.
Dan Clements 21:04
Yeah, it’s a great question. I think, push it back to you, because you used the phrase give away, give away that. You didn’t say authority, but does the head coach ever truly give away authority? Probably not.
Probably not, because they’re the head coach. So however much the players feel motivated and feel more in control, that’s great. But the reality is the head coach is still the head coach. And that’s because of social norms, hierarchy, all that kind of stuff. So you can never truly give away. Someone said to me and positioned to me once, you’re just lending a bit of power. And I thought, well, actually, it’s really powerful way of thinking about it, because you can’t get away from the fact that you’re the head coach and responsibility for stuff does lie with you. When you think about it, in that sense, it opens up your thinking because it changes your mindset as a coach. So I’ve worked with some coaches that they go, yeah, I want to give them players more voice. I want to give them more autonomy. I’m like, great, let’s try it then. But they don’t truly believe in it. So it gets into this mismatch of, damn it, I just want to tell them, this is the bit where I should be telling them, why are they doing that? You told them they could. You get in this really weird spot where if you don’t truly believe in it, don’t go for it. If you don’t believe in autonomy, you don’t believe in player voice and choice, then don’t even try because it just ends up in a mess.
What I have noticed, and the people that have started to lean into that space and want to do it more, they have a real clear framework as a leader, and they have a real clear framework as a coach. So it’s clear to them, it’s like, what are their vision, values, and behaviors? Where’s my vision of where I want to take this team? What are my values and everyone? And they’re really clear.
And I’m talking about their values, not the team values. Because you’ll have your team values for sure, but everyone understands what that coach’s values are. And those values then become life through behaviors. So if I say, I’m this, I better damn well behave that way, because if I don’t, players will sniff it from a mile off. So you need to make sure you live those values through behaviors. And then I think how it becomes to life within that framework is like your environment. So you have certain ways of doing things. And that’s on pitch, on court, off court. And then you could call them routines and rituals. Then, you know, you’ll have routines and rituals around the place that start to become the norms for your team and your culture. The more you think about it in different environments and different sports, the more you’ll start to see it. So you’ll start to see routines and rituals. So an easy one to notice is a huddle. Most people do a huddle, don’t they? But certain people do a huddle in a certain way. Certain people do their team briefs in a certain way that starts to become a routine and ritual.
Dan Clements 23:29
I think that one of the best examples that everyone can relate to in this space is probably like the Last Dance documentary, you know, that’s a great example. You can see routines and rituals throughout that series that become the norm for that environment that allows all the players to thrive within that.
And you can see that framework that I just talked through playing out in that sense. So I think when you’re clear on that and what that means to you, because I say the key thing as a coach and a head coach is authenticity. The worst thing you can do is go, right, I’m going to watch the Last Dance go out and I’m going to deliver that part of the press. You’re not that coach. So you need to do it your way and you need to do it your way and how you believe in it with your authentic self.
Pat 24:09
with young coaches when you first get a team when you go from system to head coach you know we’ve talked a lot about reflective practices and you learn with experience but. How do you help coaches like when they first get their team understand what their vision values and behaviors are like where to start and how do you help coaches are encouraged to figure out what they are gonna value and the visions and the routines of rituals.
Dan Clements 24:31
that I’ve done with individuals that have been in that space. It starts with the self, it only starts with you. So whether you go into, I don’t know, Chicago Bulls, Gold State Warriors, or a Premier League team here, or a championship team over here in football, the context is the same, but it’s different. There’s different expectations within each environment.
There’s different cultures that sit within there. But because it starts with you, the belief has to come from you, what your vision is and what your values are. Because then when you understand that, from your own personal perspective, you can then start to be more authentic and clear with that. Again, I’ve used the clip a couple of times. It’s actually Steve Kurt. He talks about, before he started coaching, he sat down with somebody, I can’t remember who said the name wasn’t. He said, what type of teams you’d want to have, you know, when you start coaching, and he talks about, well, he thought, you know, is this offense defense? And he said, no, no, what type of teams you want? And it was only that point when he really thought about, what does this team stand for? What’s the culture going to be like? What’s the kind of our environment going to look like? It’s like the same in any sport, the X’s and the O’s. They’re the given, they’re the thing that most people can find on the internet now and be a bit more creative with, and they can put their own stamp on it for sure. But what sets the great coaches apart and the ones that are going to thrive is the ones that are really clear about who they are, the kind of environment and team and culture they want to deliver. And I think when you’re more comfortable with that, from your own perspective, you can be really clear to stand in front of a group and share that and be humble and vulnerable and all the kind of strong behavior traits that we want to see in great leaders.
Dan 26:00
Dan, really appreciate all your thoughts. We wanna shift now to a segment on the show that we call Start, Sub, or Sit.
We’re gonna give you three options around a topic, ask you to start one of those options, sub one of them, and then sit one on the bench, and then we’ll discuss your answer from there. So we’ve got one Start, Sub, Sit question for ya. I’m gonna throw that back to Pat. So. you
Pat 26:20
Our start subset for you, we call it capturing motivation. And so we’re gonna give you three choices. And which one do you think would be the biggest contributor to understanding what motivates players?
Right question, yeah. So option one, would it be autonomy? Option two, would it be competence that they feel that they’re getting better, that they’re improving? Or option three, would it be relatedness, creating a feeling of belonging that they’re part of a group?
Dan Clements 26:50
Oh, it’s like trying to pick your favorite child. I’d say start autonomy.
Yeah, I’m going to caveat this. I’d always say relatedness in a team environment. I’d put that in the middle. Yeah, competence to finish.
Pat 27:08
Dan, I’d like to start with relatedness and this feeling of belonging and with your work with helping coaches develop, how you help coaches think about building a psychologically safe space for them and creating safe environments so that you can foster this belongingness that they can open up, they can be vulnerable and feel that they’re part of a group.
Dan Clements 27:30
probably starts with that bias that I have towards, and that’s why I caveatted it with team sports. You know, when you look at individual sports, I’m not quite sure if it’s, I wouldn’t be as confident to say so, but I think in team sports, when you feel like you’re part of a collective, and I’ve noticed when players feel like they’re part of a higher purpose, motivation goes through the roof because they feel connected.
And that could be attributed to innate human needs. You know, we want to feel part of a collective like we did back in the day. We want to feel part of our plan or our tribe as we were roaming the earth. You know, you want to be together with people. Not sure everybody’s in that same mindset mind. You might actually speak to some introverts and they’d say, do you know what? Actually, I really like being on my own, which is fine. But I think in a sports sense, when people in a team environment, I think that relatedness really drives motivation through the roof because they feel like they belong to a collective, a higher purpose and a group of individuals that are attempting to achieve something then that’s beyond either individual capacity or something that’s not been achieved before.
Pat 28:32
When they feel they’re part of that higher purpose, how as a coach can we kind of set that bar and balance what is their individual goals may be and their career where they’re at versus also then tailoring it to the team goals, how like coaches can walk that balance to get to where everyone feels like they want to actively contribute to this higher purpose because of course the team but then also them as well serves them.
Dan Clements 28:56
It’s one of the greatest skills a coach can do and the best leaders I’ve seen do, because the organization or the team will have their big goal, whether that’s a championship, you know, make the playoffs whatever could be something more aspirational, you know, it could be something about impact on society, it could be more players playing the sport 40, 50 years, it could be, you know, those kinds of goals and those bigger goals are the ones that really unite the collective. When you’ve got those bigger goals and whether they’re more tangible, such as win a championship, or whether they’re more down the ether, such as what we want to have a positive impact on society, that’s fine.
It’s then this coach’s job to understand whether that’s from a unit or an individual perspective. Okay, so how do we break that down? How do you play your part in doing that? And you could use something as simple as a simple framework that might be technical tactical, individual, so to speak. So if something was greater impact on society, if you looked at, you wouldn’t even might not even look at the technical tactical stuff that you might go from an individual perspective, what’s your goal this season to be a great role model for the younger players? You know, that’s something then the individual has to think about and the player has to think about what the coach is also working with them on. You then might start to build out some of the more nuanced technical tactical stuff that then ladders up to these bigger goals. But you can start to be clear about what their everydayness relates to the bigger goal. Because if you’re all equally invested in that, you know, as a collective, and then from an individual perspective, you can all relate to each other because you’re all going through the same journey. You’re all kind of doing the same thing. You know, it’s not, well, I’m doing this for one reason, and someone else is doing something else. That’s truly individual development, which again, fosters that intrinsic motivation.
Dan 30:42
My follow-up has to do with your sit, which is competence, and I know this was a difficult question to answer, but I wonder about with competence, for trying to motivate players that are struggling, are reaching plateaus, are unhappy with their role on the team. All these things that come up on every team that they don’t feel like they’re getting better or they’re not getting their shot or whatever it is, and in those instances, coaching coaches on how to still motivate those types of players through their plateaus, through their tough times.
Dan Clements 31:11
I think it’s multi-level. So you’ve got, I’d never really sit confident if I could. Because I think it is clear that if you are showing minuscule improvements, light improvements, you do become more motivated. We’ve all seen that in our own practices.
Like, if I get better at something as a coach or a coach developer, you then go, you know, actually, I’m feeling more motivated because I’m getting better at that thing. Stay with players. I think the way that coaches can do that, when I said multi-level, I think it’s more about coming back to the basics, whether that’s task designed, so you’re ensuring more success. So you might be putting that stretch zone down a little bit. You might be reducing the distance. You might be reducing the defenders without being explicit to the individual. So again, they’re not thinking, oh, they’re just making it easier for me so I get more motivated. But in the heat of the battle, they’re not going to notice. But it’s, again, your real passive understanding about how you can be cute around your practice design to help people get more success. So if they get in more increased competence, because you’ve done little tweaks around practice design, they’re going to become more motivated. We know that. You’ve then got linked to that, the actual feedback that you give them. So you really have to be clear about what type of feedback you’re giving. So is it performance outcome orientated feedback or is it developmental feedback? Because the more performance outcome orientated feedback you give at that point in time, again, motivation is going to plummet. We need to make sure that the feedback we’re giving is developmental and linked to the task or the thing that they’re trying to do, whether that’s shooting, defending, passing the ball, whatever, the thing has to be specific around that. And the more you can then stretch them, you then start to move that zone back again, don’t you? Because the more motivation they get and the more competence they get, the more you then start to stretch that zone of comfort a little bit wider. And then all of a sudden, they’re like, well, there’s a few more defenders in here now. And they didn’t even realize that the defenders that you dropped out in the first time, but all of a sudden they start to get this motivation back, you know.
Dan 33:06
Dan, you’re off the start-sub-sit hot seat. Thanks for playing that game with us. We know that was a tough question. Wow, that was tough.
Dan, we’ve got a final question to close the show. Before we do, this was a fantastic conversation. Thank you for your time and your thoughts today. We had a lot of fun, so thank you. No, thank you. I really enjoyed it. So our final question that we ask all the guests is, what’s the best investment that you’ve made in your career?
Dan Clements 33:29
a really good question as well, by the way. So I think the best investment I’ve made in my career I think around curiosity. So when I talk about investing in my own curiosity, I think it’s really easy to not peek over the fence and look at alternate worlds. So if you’re really competent, proficient in a certain sport, you know that sport, you’re probably an expert. Where did you then go for your inspiration and your motivation and your curiosity to then start to push your thinking a little bit wider? So I’ve been really lucky to meet some great people who’ve been on this podcast. I would not necessarily have ever met before and could not make the link between their world and what I’m trying to achieve within sport. But I think that investment in curiosity and pushing yourself outside your comfort zone to be more curious around different environments. Well, that’s inside of sport, outside of sport. I think that’s huge for any individual.
I think that’s what really sets great coaches apart. It’s that curiosity to want to know a little bit more. Be comfortable in yourself. Be comfortable in what you believe in and what your strengths are and your beliefs, but hold on to them lightly and really then look outside and where’s the next innovation coming from because it probably isn’t in your backyard.
Dan 34:51
Pat, let’s hop into this recap. That was a really fun, insightful conversation.
I learned a ton. Gotta give a shout out to Claire Murphy, who we had on a little while back, who connected us to Dan. And it’s really fun part of our world when you have one guest on and then someone has an idea for someone else that could help the show and get connected to someone like Dan and he comes on and just a terrific conversation that’s so applicable. So that was fun having him on today.
Pat 35:20
Yeah, always fun when we can kind of do these cross sports interviews and kind of to his closing remark on best investment, like being curious and trying to learn from other coaches and other sports is always a great privilege for us and what kind of this podcast is to your point and meeting other podcast guests has presented to us. So it was a lot of fun today.
That being said, Dan, let’s get into it and I’ll let you kick it off with the first takeaway.
Dan 35:44
So that first bucket had so much in it and back end you and I were debating for an hour, half hour before the show about kind of where to start it because there’s so many things that Dan speaks really highly on when it comes to cultures, performance, coaching, coaches, all these things. I’m really glad where we started which was the mastery versus performance orientated environments and just the subtle tweaks and differences that exist in those two and I think that obviously as coaches at all levels being performance based is part of our job with wins and losses and how our players playing and stacking up against our league and trying to get to championships.
It’s just hanging there all the time but how do you internally create a culture and an environment so that you’re built towards mastery and what the differences were and I think that that was really my big takeaway is just what that looks like and talked about the tasks, design, differentiation, voice, choice, how players view feedback and failure and the reflective practices. I mean, I’m just naming all the things you mentioned but my overall takeaway was what is a mastery orientated environment look like in practice in their day to day.
Pat 36:55
Yeah, within that conversation and our prep, I think I was excited to get into that differential coaching for lack of a better word, which is the art we’re always after trying to just improve ourselves that we can come up with like this great task is great drill, but then how each player interacts with it is going to be different. And that’s where, you know, I think our role comes in. And I like the points he made, like this is the drill we want, but then how being intentional with the players within that drill, like what their role will be in that and trying to not tailor it, but think about it so that we can watch and observe and be ready to intervene within that to help them within this specific drill.
Dan 37:33
Yeah, the other thing I’ll just add on that I enjoyed in that first bucket was the centering on reflective practices. And like you mentioned it, what you’re doing to better yourself as a coach, I asked them to follow up about self-reflection versus group reflection and mixture of those two and why they’re both important.
And as Dan mentioned, really important to have both of those and I think the thing kind of added into that, that we can at times when it comes to group reflection, if it’s not done a certain way, like we can just kind of sit around and chew the fat and… The group thing. Yeah, how do you make that a good reflective practice? And I think Brittany Loney spoke really well on after action reviews and how some of these really good cultures, not even just in basketball, but across the world, have a really good group reflective process. I believe it was Tobin Anderson way back in the day said, sometimes you gotta be careful with you have a group hang after a game at the Cheesecake Factory and it can just turn into needing better players or whatever as the conversation turns into, so how do you just have a more productive group process?
Pat 38:36
I mean, that’s always point one. You just got like, let’s get to point two.
Dan 38:40
Right, let’s move on from that faster. Well, Pat, for point number two, I’ll keep this movement, I’ll throw it to you. Yeah, point.
Pat 38:46
Point number two, we’ll sit in the first conversation, the first bucket we had, and I liked the conversation at the end when we talked about the power of positivity or positivity coaching and how I raised it, but I think you approach it in a much better term, like, you know, basically a strength-based approach and the power of kind of always in your interventions, your feedback that you can accomplish your same goals or deliver the same message using a strength-based approach coming at them with how it’s going to help their game or what they do well and, like, kind of serving that purpose, trying to use maybe a little bit more of a scalpel rather than just coming at them with a hammer, so to speak, to address issues, you know?
Dan 39:22
Yeah, Will Hardy, Utah Jazz Head Coach, when he was on, he had some good comments about how they try to not sit around and discuss player weaknesses, because what’s the point? Like, we all know their weaknesses. Let’s just talk about what they do well and how we can grow that into our scheme and help them get better.
And it kind of reminded me of that, with Coach Hardy talking about that. And then to your point about toxic positivity, it’s so true, and I think that’s like the feel of a coach. Players also don’t want to just be told everything’s all right all the time. They know it’s BS. They just like the truth. And so I thought that was a good point that Dan brought up just about telling them the truth, how you frame it, how you wrap it, so that you’re not BSing anybody, and they’re just thinking, okay, Coach, he’s just always overly positive.
Pat 40:08
You hit it like the framing is so important to think about because I think on the other end of the spectrum, you know, coaches here, oh, we got to be positive. Like, well, we can’t be, there is a problem. Like we need to fix it. And it’s like, it’s not like you ignore problems.
It’s just framing the problem to the guys. You can also frame things in a different light and still accomplish the same message. And it’s hard to do because we’re also emotional as well. Like we’re not robots either. And just like, okay, just go into this mode when you’re pissed or something. But like with everything, you know, finding the balance of it.
Dan 40:37
Yeah, before we go to our last point, Stan Van Gundy on his second episode, I think it relates to this, when he talked about chunking the season down into manageable parts, that’s where stuff like that comes into play with a team that’s struggling. It’s like, well, okay, how do you though, tell them the truth, but then also, hey, let’s just look at the next two to three games stretch, or hey, we didn’t shoot well to start the year, but let’s see if we can get better our two-point field goal percentage over the next four or five games, where it’s like you’re acknowledging the issue, but you’re also giving goals that are realistic for teams as they progress through the season.
I always take away that interview with Stan, the second one, was one that really stuck with me. you
Pat 41:12
Yeah, same here. Let’s keep it moving.
Kind of actually on that note for me and are probably what I think will be your third takeaway of kind of adjusting the goal lines, but your third takeaway and final one of our conversation with Dan.
Dan 41:24
We’ll go to the start-sub-sit on motivation and autonomy, competence, and relatedness. And, you know, in our background study, we knew Dan had knowledge of this stuff, or talked about before, as far as what motivates people, what motivates players within a group.
And so a tough start-sub-sit for him, but I’ll just start with going to the relatedness that you and him talked about, kind of got into the belonging piece. Go back to the great own Eastwood conversation we had from a couple years ago on when players feel like they belong when they have that psychological safety, which you too talked about a little bit within a group. And they feel like they have a voice that, even if they’re struggling, little wins or little improvements do make a big difference. And that relatedness to a group goal and the relatedness to the group themselves and each other just goes a long way. And that person wants to show up every day and give the effort, give the time and everything that’s needed for a great team to thrive. And so I just enjoyed hearing him talk about the relatedness and why it’s so important to motivation.
Pat 42:26
Yeah, the part that I really enjoyed was when you asked to follow up on competence. I always go back way back, and I think it was, you know, credit to you again, when you’re talking to Phil Beckner about player plateaus, or maybe when they start to backslide a little bit, or just aren’t happy with their playing time. The levers we can pull as coaches to keep them motivated rowing in the right direction. And I thought he gave a very great practical approach to it.
And, you know, starting with, again, back to practice design and putting intention practice, and start to move the goalposts a little bit for this said player. So it’s somewhat easier without them knowing, but that they start to get success again. And then, of course, being mindful of how we give them our feedback, you know, with a struggling player, like you said, if it’s performance outcome orientated, it’s gonna be counterintuitive work against you. But then like the feedback is all development orientated and really enjoyed that conversation just from the standpoint of like, it’s gonna happen, we all know it. And this is a tough job. And we have to like give players bad news or they’re not playing well, but how then we can put confidence in them in a practical way, like what we can do outside of, of course, individual talks, which plays its role and is important. But then like on the court, okay, we got to get this guy some feeling some success again.
Dan 43:39
Yeah, as we all know, sometimes the hardest player to motivate, it’s not your starting five or your sixth, seventh, it’s that eighth, ninth player that’s sometimes in, sometimes five minutes, sometimes not. And having them feel success and feeling part of the group and it’s different for every team of course, but I think that’s something Dan spoke really well on.
Pat, a ton of stuff today. Are there any misses? Not from Dan, of course, but anything we could have gone deeper on.
Pat 44:02
One miss that I would have liked to have gone deeper on and wish I asked was just about the use of film study and building these mastery environments. What he talks about coaches and how they use film and when they sit down with their team what he recommends and the role that film plays within building out these mastery environments and film reviews and after-action stuff a little bit we did hit on but specifically film I wish I had followed up on.
Dan 44:26
Yeah, sure. He would have had good thoughts just from his work with soccer and all that, because I know there’s similar film work in a group level for sure. I’ll just follow up on, I asked him the question about the sort of top down approach first, the coach being in command in more of a centralized environment. He had a really good quote about lending a bit of power. I just thought that was a good quote.
And they probably said, this isn’t a miss, just something like we probably could have gone deeper down that rabbit hole. This conversation kind of moved off it. And I just thought that was a nice quote about that, where you’re not giving up power, you’re just lending it to someone else. And I thought that was kind of a good visual there. So great stuff from Dan. Well, once again, we appreciate everybody for listening. Thanks, Dan, for coming on. Have a great week. See you next time.